Thread: BBW Straight to Nakayama?

Originally Posted by kevint

Hi ZL, man that is a lot of stropping; but I am curious as to the whats whys and where(you heard) not to use nagura on suita?

Suita has tiny bubble pockets, when you use nagura those pockets will fill up with the foreign grit which will prevent from new abrasive to break lose.
I talked to So, and he also does not recommend using nagura on Nakayamas because the nagura is too rough and will not break down enough to match the grit of the stone. So recommends diamond plates for slurry on any nat stone.

Never use nagura in any of your fine stones.
You can use if you mean to set the bevel or do the job in lower level progression.
I wanted say couple words about original thread.
Moving from bbw to nakayama or any other stone.
This just doesn't make any sense to me what are you trying to say.
i Have hard time to understand.
Every stone in progression from 1k to -----x has surtian job and stone will do that job maximum. you can stop early example on 3 k stone
Lets say instead of 30 laps on 3 k you have done 5 laps.
Above means 3 k stone didn't do it is job.
Now you move on to 5 k stone.
What happens in reality time you should make (example) 30 strokes on 5k stone. In fact in above situation you are in trouble in 5k level because 3k didn't do it is job.
As a result you end up doing instead of 30 strokes -100 strokes to bring the edge true 5 k level.
This is it Period Guys .

IN your case You are saying you jumping from BBW TO NAKAYAMA.
Does it matter ? of course not .
You will do this and your NAKAYAMA WILL take all the job and you will stay on NAKAYAMA IN HOURS TO get the job done. ( end result depends from your last stone)
But if you go from BBW TO Higher grit stone( doesn't matter what it is coticule,norton 8k,shapton. NAniwa etc so on) you will not stay on NAKAYAMA HOURS BUT 10 minutes.
i hope i was clear enough and this will help someone.
have fun.

Originally Posted by mainaman

Suita has tiny bubble pockets, when you use nagura those pockets will fill up with the foreign grit which will prevent from new abrasive to break lose.
I talked to So, and he also does not recommend using nagura on Nakayamas because the nagura is too rough and will not break down enough to match the grit of the stone. So recommends diamond plates for slurry on any nat stone.

I suppose that is a partial explanation. Having something in the su would not prevent any new release of particle. iirc the stone is ohira not nakayama, but that doesn't matter much.

I would be surprised if So meant Dplate to the exclusion of/ sometimes using nagura on any nat. More like: you can use dplate on any natural with good results.

Originally Posted by kevint

I suppose that is a partial explanation. Having something in the su would not prevent any new release of particle. iirc the stone is ohira not nakayama, but that doesn't matter much.

I would be surprised if So meant Dplate to the exclusion of/ sometimes using nagura on any nat. More like: you can use dplate on any natural with good results.

Oohira or Nakayama if they are from the suita strata its all the same , you cant use nagura.
Here is what So said about using nagura on Nakayama:

One thing about Naguras. I strongly recommend NOT TO USE any Naguras for razor honing. Nagura particles are much larger than the particle size of the stones we are talking about now, so if you use Nagura over say this Asagi, it will make the razor so scratched.

I had a very good explanation from alex about suita and why not use nagura but can't find the e-mail. May be he will jump in and enlighten us more.

You have to take Sos comment in context; it looks to me like he is saying the same thing as Sham and O_S - using a slurry is for agressive honing, not final polishing. I'm assuming you have more info from So that you didn't post, because there is nothing about the su filling up or new grit not being exposed. Would you mind sharing the rest of your information?

Also, it looks like So is assuming that the nagura is more coarse than the hone - that is not always the case. I'm sure some guys could produce a slurry that is finer than a given hone, in which case So's comment may or may not hold true.

Could one go from a BBW to an Escher? I have one arriving in a week or so and want to give it a try.

I reckon if I use slurry first, then just water I should be OK.

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

You have to take Sos comment in context; it looks to me like he is saying the same thing as Sham and O_S - using a slurry is for agressive honing, not final polishing. I'm assuming you have more info from So that you didn't post, because there is nothing about the su filling up or new grit not being exposed. Would you mind sharing the rest of your information?

this is all he said , the rest of the info about Su I got from Alx, and Zeth. Unfortunately I deleted the e-mail from Alex along with some other important ones by mistake.

Also, it looks like So is assuming that the nagura is more coarse than the hone - that is not always the case. I'm sure some guys could produce a slurry that is finer than a given hone, in which case So's comment may or may not hold true.

So specifically said the finest nagura there is will still be undesirable to use on a finisher.
here is another quote of his related to the use of nagura

Also, to show you what I mean that Naguras aren't good on fine stones, I'll include a small piece of the highest quality Nagura. Try it and you'll see it doesn't nearly work as well compared to Atoma slurry. You might want to get an Atoma #1200 in the future as well, as it is really the best for this purpose, I can guarantee you this, as I have got many feedbacks as well from people who got them.

He gives atoma as example but he also said that 1.2k DMT works just as well

Originally Posted by mainaman

this is all he said , the rest of the info about Su I got from Alx, and Zeth. Unfortunately I deleted the e-mail from Alex along with some other important ones by mistake.


So specifically said the finest nagura there is will still be undesirable to use on a finisher.
here is another quote of his related to the use of nagura
He gives atoma as example but he also said that 1.2k DMT works just as well

Maybe there is some vocabulary that I'm not understanding. There has been mention of slurry and of nagura - clearly there is a difference that I don't understand. I thought it has always been very clear everywhere on the forums that one should typically only create a slurry on a given hone with the same or higher grits/same or smaller particle sizes. I guess I just assumed no one was walking about using a more coarse/larger grit sized slurry/nagura/whatever because that is stipulated as not a great idea. The only exception I know of is the method that Sham demonstrated, and I'd say you've gotta really know your hones to pull that off (which Sham does).

So, in general, I guess I have nothing new to add from by previous post. So is saying the same as the guys here, and assuming the nagura is more coarse.

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Maybe there is some vocabulary that I'm not understanding. There has been mention of slurry and of nagura - clearly there is a difference that I don't understand.

So, in general, I guess I have nothing new to add from by previous post. So is saying the same as the guys here, and assuming the nagura is more coarse.[/QUOTE]My understanding, and I can't seem to find any info, is that Nagura means stone that is used to raise slurry, not a mine name .
Slurry is the mud you raise that is made of the same particles as the hone, but you also will release particles from the coarser Nagura stone.
You can also use slurry stone that is made out of a piece of the same stone you use for sharpening.
I do not see a reason of trying to make slurry with stone finer than the grit you are on, since you are still going to do work with the coarser grit.
Please let me know if my logic is flawed somewhere.

Originally Posted by kevint

Hi ZL, man that is a lot of stropping; but I am curious as to the whats whys and where(you heard) not to use nagura on suita?

I think Stefan has made the point very well. The "su" has a tendency to trap released particles (grit) within them thus a rubbing stone that may 'contaminate' the honing surface is a no-no, and why a diamon hone is preferable (a peice sut off of the stone would be just as good, but who wants to cut up they expensive hones? Not me.). Japanese Junmikawa Nagura would be better served on Tomae hones that won't hang onto to nagura grit in the "su" pockets.



As for the stropping, I like to strop so that may have something to do with it. Yet I am sure that it takes away initial 'harshness' or 'bite' after a fresh honing. I also have a number of strops that don't see much action aside from after a fresh honing. It is just a comfort thing for me.




Getting back to the OP, I think if all you had was a coticule BBW combo and a Nakayama I would personally do some work on the coticule after the BBW and before the Nakayama.