Thread: BBW Straight to Nakayama?

Originally Posted by mainaman

So, in general, I guess I have nothing new to add from by previous post. So is saying the same as the guys here, and assuming the nagura is more coarse.My understanding, and I can't seem to find any info, is that Nagura means stone that is used to raise slurry, not a mine name .
Slurry is the mud you raise that is made of the same particles as the hone, but you also will release particles from the coarser Nagura stone.
You can also use slurry stone that is made out of a piece of the same stone you use for sharpening.
I do not see a reason of trying to make slurry with stone finer than the grit you are on, since you are still going to do work with the coarser grit.
Please let me know if my logic is flawed somewhere.

To be honest, I only ever make slurry with the same hone, because I am on that hone for a reason. I don't see any point in making slurry with a coarser stone - if I want a coarser grit I'll use a coarser hone. If a finer stone is used to create the slurry, then you will not be moving backwards. Yes, the very fine slurry may not do much, but you'll also have slurry from the hone you are honing on, and, presumably, that is the grit level you want to cut at. So, the way I see it, using the same stone is ideal, but using a finer slurry stone is a way to ensure you don't drop drown in grit. The finer slurry may even help smooth things out a bit (I really have no idea, though).

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

To be honest, I only ever make slurry with the same hone, because I am on that hone for a reason. I don't see any point in making slurry with a coarser stone - if I want a coarser grit I'll use a coarser hone. If a finer stone is used to create the slurry, then you will not be moving backwards. Yes, the very fine slurry may not do much, but you'll also have slurry from the hone you are honing on, and, presumably, that is the grit level you want to cut at. So, the way I see it, using the same stone is ideal, but using a finer slurry stone is a way to ensure you don't drop drown in grit. The finer slurry may even help smooth things out a bit (I really have no idea, though).

I was thinking about that today and came to the same conclusion, it must make things smoother since it still abrasive. I wish I could test ..

my main condition is: I don't like absolutes who said, maybe I missed it, anything about the final finishing strokes?

I think what i read was more like never do this and only do that, which of course raised my curiosity enough to inquire further; as absolutes do not really apply to sharpening with so may different hands and stones, steels in the house.

another thing as a for instance. I do not believe most or anyone could tell you much difference between an edge finished on asagi vs. an edge finished on asagi w/ light coticule slurry. but again some days you could others not

one reason to drop down with slurry is perhaps that is all you have. Ultimately that may lead one to a few extra laps with water or as in the case above, not so many after all. But with all these absolute rules one must follow to hone a razor, pretty soon it becomes Law, because somebody said and somebody else kept repeating it. With a high pressure douche of clean water all the su can be cleaned ...sometime take a look at So's pic on his nat stone page, see all that residue and dried slurry from who knows how many different stones. He does not really appear to be overtly concerned with contaminations in his personal practice, perhaps better for him to say as i merely observe



i have quite a few choices 1200 atoma "nagura". nakayama asagi on nakayama asagi, shinden suita on shinden. I could use iyo for nagura or uchigumori, or takashima tomae etc etc. usually i use like stone on stone if i want some slurry near the end

If you wonder what smoothing effect a finer stone slurry may add-you could try some awasedo milk on your 8 or 12k

Dylan, Nagura is a specific type of stone. Some are used by sword polishers, some are used as rubbers. their use as rubbers has given rise to the term being used to describe the rubbing- diamond nagura is to use a D-plate as a slurry stone.

Originally Posted by kevint

Dylan, Nagura is a specific type of stone. Some are used by sword polishers, some are used as rubbers. their use as rubbers has given rise to the term being used to describe the rubbing- diamond nagura is to use a D-plate as a slurry stone.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I'm also not a fan of absolutes or generalizations, though I've probably used my fair share in the past and probably still drop some these days. I try to avoid it. I try to stick with "in my experience" or "with my razors" - the only exceptions are when people I really respect tell me something. It should be pretty clear who these people are, as there are not many I will quote or paraphrase. This is also why I question when someone else says "person X says this" or "person X is well respected" - I have very high standards when it comes to who I will believe at face value, and if I don't know, I will just read whatever "person X" says at face value.

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

Even so, it is still aggressive, and not suitable for final polishing either.

this is getting confusing now.
if you are using slurry from stone itself you should be fine. In my personal experience As much as you use slurry it gets better(in my japanese stone they do this actually + Escher same.)
i never finish without slurry an Escher or Japanese stones.
Cannot see any improvement if i use just water.
VEry important factor i have to mention.
My Experience comes out only range of max 800.00 Japanese hones.
i have never used 27000 $ Japanese hone and have no idea how they will act.

Now if you are talking about different slurry from small stones it is different story,hope this helps

Originally Posted by OLD_SCHOOL

When you mention Nagura here, are you referring to proper Nagura, or are you using the word to describe any generic slurry stone?

I have used 2 Nagura (slurry stones) stones . That is how they called .They both were very course . i could say approximately 4k -6k level.
There may be finest nagura slurry stones out there available i don't know that.
They both were yellow color -one squire form another one similar to pyramid.
Now are they proper NAGURA? i have no idea.

It could be in Japan you call nagura stones -fine stone's only.
In USA darn small stone which is way course people sells by nagura name.

My understanding is that the true Nagura were mined in Iyo and were smaller bits from the "Iyoto" we had been discussing in another thread which can range from 800-4000 grit.

As for the discussion of the "Su" they are only found in the Suita layer. I don't think all Japanese natural hones have "su". So, says that most of the Nakayama we see come from the Namito layer which is the layer just above the Suita layers.

here is the reference: Japan Tool - Technique&Knowledge - Awasedo

Look closely at what he says about the Hon-kuchi Naori.

So on Nagura:

Best Quality Japanese Nagura Stone

The only genuine Nagura stone. Any Nagura stones that doesn't have the appraisal red stamp by Asano is not a genuine Nagura. They are similar stone from other mountains, lesser in quality = coarser particles.

Below is an excerpt from a famous book "Hamono no Mikata(How to appreciate a blade) written by Japanese sword specialist Dr. Kousuke Iwasaki, father of Shigeyoshi Iwasaki. Kousuke and his son Shigeyoshi (he is still energetically mentoring many talented blacksmiths) has been two leading characters among Niigata blacksmiths. Many famous blacksmiths, such as Usui Kengo to name one, has asked Dr. Iwasaki for his scientific knowledge about steel.

"Nagura stone's origin is Miwamura mountain in North Sitara, Aichi prefecture, and not from Nagura mountain as many people are misidentifying. The name must have been derived from the ancient name of this area where it used to be called Nagura town. The mine has been closed for decade now."

Dr. Iwasaki who is a Tama-hagane (ie. Japanese sword) specialist has reconized these stones as the best quality stone to dress the finishing stone or to actually polish the swords with them. Botan strata has the highest cutting strength out of all stratas used for chisel and plane blade sharpening (Mejiro, Koma, Tenjyou, Botan). Betsujyou grade has no streaks and almost pure white, suited for more finer sharpening. Tokkyu grade which is a bit more expensive has orange streaks that has stronger cutting strength, is more suited for quick cutting of harder alloys.