Thread: Belgium vs Norton

Ok. I now have a question about honing.

I see that the blue corticule stone equates to the Norton 4000
and the yellow to the 8000 or maybe 12000.

Well the norton is noticably cheaper so why should I spend the extra $$$$. What am I missing here? The 3x8 Norton combo 4k/8k goes for $75 while the Belgium Corticule Yellow (3x8) go for about $175 Blue (3x8) go for about $70.
Now I know the expression "You get what you pay for" might apply but $75 vs. $245.
Any thoughts??

I have no clue how long a norton lasts, but the belgian stones seem to hold for "ages". Although that will not make up the difference, the fact that the belgian ones are a natural stone, only quarried from 1 place in the world, makes it a collectible. A bit like between a Harley and an Indian bike (for those weird 2-wheelers amongst us). It is all supply and demand (if not the name).....

Hoekie

I think Lynn uses his coticule as a finisher after the Norton.

X

According to the quarry you should NEVER use the stone dry!

http://www.ardennes-coticule.com/engels.htm
click "use" on the left, top of the page will say: "THE STONE MUST BE USED WITH WATER,NEVER USE IT DRY!"

Hoekie

The main difference (aside from the obvious economics=supply V. demand) is the way the two hones cut.
The nortons are a man made abrasive (probably a variation on Alu. Ox.) that has it's own properties and charictoristics (i.e. cutting action)
The Coticule hones have garnet in them that does the cutting. The multi-facited garnet has completly different cutting action. For those who havent bothered to check out the belgischer brocken site; here is a shot of the garntes under X1600 power:


Think of it like Arkansas compaired to Ceramic compaired to diamond particle and compaired to the Norton water hones, all in similar abrasive properties. They all do the same work (the cut and hone the steel) but they do it at different rates, to a different degree and with different mentality.... dare I say "personality".

The Belgians do cut differently and I use (and sell) both. Water really should be used, and I think what may have been meant was they do not need to be soaked as they are not porous. Splash water on them and that is it.

There was some debate in another thread over how the garnets cut. The quarries own website explains the same info I passed along, 15micron (average) garnet crystals with many facets that only penetrate the steel about 2 microns. I researched a little more and also remembered something I learned about sandpaper years ago when I started woodworking......garnet paper keeps cutting longer than other paper becuase the garnets do fracture and expose new, fresh cutting egdes (Randy Tuttle, you were correct). This likely happens as well on the Coticule so the ever decreasing partical size and the odd crystal shape (about 32 sides) both seem to contribute to the fine cutting action.

Both Thiers-Issard and Dovo use these as the final hand step before stropping but I know that TI does not use water, but naptha instead. I am told that it is not what we call naptha though. In Europe naptha may actually be kerosene (paraffin in the UK). There thought being the kersosene disperses the fine crystals better so swarf does not build up under the fine edge of a TI razor and possibly deflect it. So it looks like they clearly do not buy the slurry approach. I am told that Dovo uses oil (kerosene again?) with their Coticule stones.

They are pricey stones and much of the appeal is the natural aspect. They only come from one place and every splinter is saved and used. Most yellow is backed with slate to strengthen it but occasionally a natural yellow/blue combo can be found so you get a 2 in 1 stone. The stones rarely achieve any great size and a 3x8 is really near the upper limit on the yellow.

I still think the Norton is a great and fast cutting stone but choose to finish with a Belgian simply for the natural aspect.

Best,
Tony
(I will be posting a few older stones on my website along with the new ones this weekend)

Don't forget to build up the slurry after adding water, which should be done with a size 1 or 2 belgian stone, same as the one you would work with (coticule or blue belgian stone).

Hoekie

Originally Posted by HoekmanX

Don't forget to build up the slurry after adding water, which should be done with a size 1 or 2 belgian stone, same as the one you would work with (coticule or blue belgian stone).

Hoekie

I really agree with this statement. It would be a very good idea to purchase a small "rubbing stone" that matches the hone to generate a slurry. My grandfathers old hone, a "Little Frictionite 00" came with a rubbing stone.

I am going to buy another Norton 4/8 to use for lapping and for generating a slurry on the my main Norton 4/8 hones.

Like with like,

Ok guys I am still waiting. I have yet to hear a reason to buy a set. I can get 3 Nortons for one set of these so longevity is out. Are they faster, smoother, easier to use? Are they better for your health, make your breath sweeter?
So far it is still Norton for me. I think I would rather spend the money on one of Tony's pasted strops

Originally Posted by RichZ

Ok guys I am still waiting. I have yet to hear a reason to buy a set. I can get 3 Nortons for one set of these so longevity is out. Are they faster, smoother, easier to use? Are they better for your health, make your breath sweeter?
So far it is still Norton for me. I think I would rather spend the money on one of Tony's pasted strops

Braggin' rights?

RT