Thread: Ace gets over the hump, well, kinda

In the final two of my three progressions, I did use the Pyramid, going by the Wiki book all the way.

In the process of finishing once again tonight with the entire process, I found a small indentation, a "micro-chip" perhaps in the middle of the blade after stropping on .5 micron diamond spray on wool and then leather. This "chip" was not there before. There is some pitting in the blade, just above the bevel, at just this point on the blade. This has now happened three out of four honing attempts. While this would point to a proper bevel not being established, all of the times this has happened, the "chip" has appeared only in the final stages, and I still believe it is being revealed as the final bits of metal are stropped away. The fact that the "chip" gets REVEALED late in the process and wasn't there before, and that it coincides precisely with pitting above the bevel leads me to believe it could be the steel itself. My stropping technique may not be the best but I'm not rolling the edge or slapping the blade about, and the spine is always on the stropping material.

I have routinely lapped all my stones, but will take time tomorrow to heavily lap the 4K, a single grit stone so I have plenty of room for that. Still, the "chip" I am referring to was most definitely not there after 4K viewed with a 10X loupe.

Wow! I'm sorry to hear of all your trouble with this one. I have experienced this same pain, and it's a big one after all that work. If I remember right you have some other blades to work with. Sounds like you've got all the techniques down; maybe it's time to try them on your cleanest-looking but not shave-ready blade. You deserve a success!

Originally Posted by roughkype

I think most people use the pyramid method on their 4k/8k or equivalent grits. I haven't heard of anyone using a pyramid between 8k and 12k, but maybe they do. In general, it takes more time to remove metal on a finer grit, so you may need more laps on the 12k than you're using.

I think the path to that nice narrow bevel is a very light touch; as everyone says, just the weight of the blade on the stone. If your bevel is wider, especially with a taped spine, that probably means your blade is flexing toward the stone as you hone it.

I have not perfected that light touch yet myself; I was amazed at the narrowness of the first pro-honed blade I received.

If a razor has a lot of hone wear on the spine, it may not be possible to get that original narrow bevel but it's best to work with the metal that's there, since the spine and the honed edge are your contact points when stropping. The spine is the razor's built-in honing guide.

Good luck and best wishes.

Roughkype,

I think that's the answer, finally, pressure. I didn't think the bevels were suspect, although the height of the bevels concerned me. I'm sure I was applying too much pressure, flexing the hollow ground blade, extending the height of the bevel, and ultimately weakening it. The fact that on three out of four honing attempts I managed to "reveal" a little micro-chip or two toward the end was probably a result of the narrowed angle of the bevel caused by the flexing of the blade on the stone as it was honed. I think that "chipping" was happening because the blade was sharp but too thin and couldn't support the edge. Also, on the last two shaves with the razor, it seemed to start fine and "ran out of gas" after the first pass and was pulling badly. I think that my beard was wearing the edge down because it was too thin.

I'll rehone tonight, with one layer of tape to protect the only part of the razor that's not been ground away, the spine, and make sure that from start to finish, only the weight of the razor is applied to the hone.

Thanks for your insight!

Ace

Hey Ace,

My insight is far from the best you'll find on the site. I hope the light touch works out for you. Good luck!

The fact that the "chip" gets REVEALED late in the process and wasn't there before, and that it coincides precisely with pitting above the bevel leads me to believe it could be the steel itself.

Welcome to "Devil's Spit" !!!!! A small spot of corrosion at the surface of the blade may cause havoc deep inside the metal. It's the way rust behaves in high-carbon steel.

You understand the cause perfectly. The cure is to remove metal until you're clear of the offending corroded spot.

I just had such a situation. It really hurt to destroy my nice edge, and grind away more metal during bevel-setting, but it's the only way to achieve a good edge.

Charles

So THAT'S what "devil's spit" is. I'd seen the term but didn't understand it. I've had that on one of my blades, but its relationship to the surface was clearer so I wasn't surprised that my honing revealed a new chip.

So you're saying that the rust can form a tunnel in the steel? How evil.

So, Ace, you're on the right track. You've had lots of practice. If you don't mean to shave with this blade, you could probably reward yourself with a successful honing of one of your other blades. I speak out of the impatience I know I'd be feeling by now.

Good luck and best wishes!

Three layers of tape is a lot for a hollow ground razor, if you want to use any use one layer, I use none...I don't see the point. The reason the razor made the buttering toast sound is because when you use tape you're changing the shaving angle a bit...

For example if I use a 30 degree angle on a razor that didn't get honed with tape it may be more quiet than a razor that had three layers of tape..

When you use more tape it's like you're increasing the shaving angle of the razor so when you actually use more tape you should be shaving with an angle lower to your face (spine closer to your skin).

The raze sounds loud because it's like using a much higher angle with a razor that didn't use tape.

Try this, take a razor that wasn't honed with tape and shave with a crazy high angle, the razor will sound loud and scrappy...that's because the shaving angle is the same as a lower angle with a razor that was honed with a lot of tape, which is why it's also loud, your angle is too steep.

EDIT: also clauss razor's have very hard steel, harder than say a Solingen blade and they take more work on the bevel setting stage. Stay on the 1K level with one or no layers of tape and then keep on there until you can shave your arm razor easily, make sure bevel looks even in the light.

When you move to the 4K your arm hair should shave easier and not grab and cut, just cut.

As you progress you can shave arm hair easier and at a higher point (mid length as example) without any pulling or noise.

Originally Posted by Disburden

Three layers of tape is a lot for a hollow ground razor, if you want to use any use one layer, I use none...I don't see the point. The reason the razor made the buttering toast sound is because when you use tape you're changing the shaving angle a bit...

For example if I use a 30 degree angle on a razor that didn't get honed with tape it may be more quiet than a razor that had three layers of tape..

When you use more tape it's like you're increasing the shaving angle of the razor so when you actually use more tape you should be shaving with an angle lower to your face (spine closer to your skin).

The raze sounds loud because it's like using a much higher angle with a razor that didn't use tape.

Try this, take a razor that wasn't honed with tape and shave with a crazy high angle, the razor will sound loud and scrappy...that's because the shaving angle is the same as a lower angle with a razor that was honed with a lot of tape, which is why it's also loud, your angle is too steep.

EDIT: also clauss razor's have very hard steel, harder than say a Solingen blade and they take more work on the bevel setting stage. Stay on the 1K level with one or no layers of tape and then keep on there until you can shave your arm razor easily, make sure bevel looks even in the light.

When you move to the 4K your arm hair should shave easier and not grab and cut, just cut.

As you progress you can shave arm hair easier and at a higher point (mid length as example) without any pulling or noise.

Disburden,

I'll probably always use tape when honing to protect the spine and for appearance purposes.

I am experimenting with three layers only for the reason that I am trying to find a way to set a good bevel without "tall" sides, the sides being the distance from the edge to the end of the bevel. So far, mine seem to have been "taller" than the good ones that I have seen, and I am trying to find a way to make mine look more like those of the honemeisters.

As much as I am against breadknifing in principle, I have been doing that because going from three layers of tape to one or none and re-setting the bevel seems like an awful lot of work to take on. It seems like breadknifiing makes it quicker.

If I'm getting bevel edges that are too "tall" with three layers of tape, it is likely to get much worse with no layers, for the very reasons you detailed. Tonight I'm going to give two layers a shot at 220 and see if I can set a bevel without exerting any pressure. I tried that with 1K, but after three hours, more laps than I could possibly count, and three top layer tape replacements, it's hard to maintain paitence and not apply pressure.

Hi Ace,

Can you post a picture of the razor you've been working on? If it's an old one, it may have hone wear from its previous life. That hone wear could, in addition to pressure, contribute to your wide bevels by reducing the blade's angle to the hone.

I think breadknifing may be adding rather than subtracting time from your total honing. The only really good reason to breadknife is to grind past nicks or corrosion on the edge. To reset a bevel, you only need to hone past the existing worn (slightly convex) edges and replace them with two flat, intersecting planes. That doesn't require the removal of nearly as much metal as does reestablishment following a breadknifing.

Patience is key.

Good luck. I really hope you're rewarded with a success soon!

Originally Posted by roughkype

Hi Ace,

Can you post a picture of the razor you've been working on? If it's an old one, it may have hone wear from its previous life. That hone wear could, in addition to pressure, contribute to your wide bevels by reducing the blade's angle to the hone.

I think breadknifing may be adding rather than subtracting time from your total honing. The only really good reason to breadknife is to grind past nicks or corrosion on the edge. To reset a bevel, you only need to hone past the existing worn (slightly convex) edges and replace them with two flat, intersecting planes. That doesn't require the removal of nearly as much metal as does reestablishment following a breadknifing.

Patience is key.

Good luck. I really hope you're rewarded with a success soon!

Roughkype,

I'm somewhat photographically challenged, and kind of lazy as well, but that's the second request I've had for a photo of the razor I'm currently in the process of screwing up. I may do that tomorrow. You're in the process of talking me out of my breadknifing career. That's sad because breadknifing is the one part of honing I've got figured out.

It certainly does prolong the bevel-setting process. I've been trying to avoid using pressure because the hollow ground Clauss I'm practicing with flexes under pressure, and I wind up with a bevel that appears to me to be too "tall" (occupying too much space on the side of the blade) and look amateurish. It also seems to have produced edges that are too thin, weak, and don't stand up to shaving. After I've breadknifed, I try to use no pressure to set the bevel, but it quite literally takes hours and I wind up using pressure just to get it over with and then, once again, end up with a tall and unsightly bevel. Tomorrow morning (I'm worn out from thousands of laps tonight), I'm going to try starting with a coarse stone in the Smith Tri-Hone system, using no pressure at all. I'm sure that stone is lower than 220 grit. If I can get a bevel set with that with no pressure, I'll then move up through the 220, the 1K, and on to my 4K, 8K (all Nortons) then my Naniwa 12K and go from there.

Don't feel too sorry for me. I've been shaving with a Dovo Shavette, produced especially for us masochists, and just made the decision to see if I could hone up a razor to shave readiness myself. I do have some shave ready straights, even one done by you-know-who, so I could go that way if I wanted to. But I'm pretty determined about this. I'm just trying to find a way to go about bevel-setting that doesn't take three hours and give me carpal tunnel syndrome in the process.

Your idea about staying away from breadknifing is right on the money. Tomorrow I'll start with the bevel I already have and just hone past it. Thanks!