Thread: Feedback on Keenness

I've had requests for touch-ups recently, each by new shavers, to make an edge more keen. In all but one, the blade sent is already doing an HHT 3 or 4 on a thick (.0033") wetted hair held 1/2" from the cutting point. Test shaves seem quite good already. Now certainly others may prefer a more crispy edge than I, and that's not hard to deliver, but I'm suspecting that there's something else happening that is being attributed to keenness.

Have any of you gotten this kind of request? How do you work the issue - just deliver nasty sharp? I'm inclined to probe for what action is occurring - what move is being made during the shave that makes them think more keenness is the answer. I'm suspecting technique - just from remembering my own (ongoing) learning curve.

This particular argument has been going on for the 4 years I have been on here...

Here is a simple fact, an experienced shaver can shave a less then perfect edge, by using more advanced strokes he can get away with a much "less keen" razor... So yes your right it is technique....

BUT

When you decide to hone for other people though you cannot think of what you like, you have to hone for them and for the razor...Your objective is to send the absolute best edge possible, both smooth and keen...

See honing for yourself is pretty easy, but start honing for other people, then start asking them for money, and that is when you separate the proverbial men from the boys

I don't know what you have in your arsnenal, hone wise that is, but for that extra added keeness, I've always used diamond paste. You can take the blade to a 12k, a 16k, a Charnley. The 16k and Charnley will provide you a keen, sharp edge, as will many J nats. Where Coti's, and Escher produce a more refined edge. Hard to explain, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. I've always found Diamond paste, or Diamond spray on felt, to give the edge that extra added something. I'm not sure about the HHT Scale, don't use it....

It is impossible to say from your description whether it is you or them. You say they are new shavers and that might indicate it is their lack of shaving technique but there are two complaints, not one. So two separate individuals might indicate the edges could be better. When they send them back strop and shave with the blades and see how they feel to you. If they are still shaving well you'll know it is their technique. If they don't shave as well as when they last left you , perhaps the edges were rolled while stropping.

One way or the other, make the customer happy and get the edges back up to speed. When Lynn posts about preferring stones that give consistent results this is the difference between the hobbiest honer who only hones for himself without the pressure of the end user waiting for his edge to come back. One reason I never wanted to hang a shingle for pro honing and turn an enjoyable pursuit into a job.

Gents, Thank You!

Just for reference, I'm far from contemplating honing for money. 'Postage only. The SAD infection is raging (skills acquisition disorder) and I want to hone everything I can get my hands on. The area of learning, assessing what works for others seems huge. Suddenly, I'm without the benefit of my own face being the yardstick by which to judge an edge - as you've rightly pointed out. 'Makes me remember Glen's talking about doing heavy Sheffields - when they never feel good to his face. I'm similar that way - they never feel right to me either. So how to proceed when a big part of assessing the result is flying blindly? How to discover preference and best aim the response. I know its not an easy question. I appreciate your kind help a bunch.

The last 4 blades that came my way (Wosty Pipe hollow, Geneva 7n, Dovo Best, Tornblom faux frameback) all shaved pretty well. They shave better when I'm done, but my face isn't the yardstick. So that means I'm really chasing how to learn, assess what someone else is asking for. Nasty sharp on Soligen or US isn't hard w/ the asagi - with or without a 2ndary bevel. The coti, and even BBW can take the keenness beyond what for me is comfortable. The phig takes anything beyond comfort (and I remember Glen saying the Swedes like the phig).

Again, thank you for your help. Its a big difference aiming at a target that's not my own face. I'm pretty determined to learn how its done. There are many happy w/ my edges, but the real test are those who's preferences are outside my own comfort areas. I appreciate your kind help, Gents.

I'm with Jimmy here. I would never hone as a business cause I don't want all the hassles that can go along with it. However all I can tell you is to me the ultimate indicator of a razor being truly shave ready is, imagine being blindfolded and someone took a razor and did a stroke down your face and you weren't expecting it and you couldn't even tell a razor went down the side of your face and the area shaved was BBS. Just complete smoothness and comfort with a capitol C. I think if you got that sensation it means you did a good job.

A most interesting turn today. First - all involved were just wonderfully gracious and gentlemanly. 'Makes it a total pleasure & lifts my spirits.

A blade recipient lived near a moderator of another forum, and they met this morn, stones in hand to re-hone the edge. The moderator said he thought the edge was good, but some face/beard combination have different needs. 'No competitive attitude at all, 'just helping a new shaver succeed. Bravo to this guy.

I learned first that he used 2 'Belgian' stones, then a 'German' stone - there are a few rare others (frankonian), but it seemed a good bet to be cotis and an Escher/Thurry. (someday...) Essentially, it was only the finish that differed and getting more keenness from the jnat isn't particularly difficult.

Later, the shave report was that the difference was not much - which was a relief. It was just misconceptions about what to expect - which I have A LOT of empathy for. I suffered for my misconceptions a lot. I'll be glad when more of them are gone! Anyway, the outcome was good, included wonderful help from another forum member.

Some kind help from Glen in PMs deserve more thanks than I know how to give. I'm still taking in all the implications of 'bevel, bevel, bevel' and get the sharp first. I have some more learning to do. Fortunately its wonderful fun to learn and do.

Thank You all again, Gents I appreciate your kind help.

Still grinding away between my ears on the import of bevel, bevel, bevel and sharp first. They're foundational, basic principles - which means they affect everything else, so I'm still just churning over it, trying to get my head further around what all that means.

Previously, I'd gotten sharp first, and there weren't many arrows in my quiver on how to smooth it out. Rightly or wrongly, I've shunned pastes and sprays, preferring to develop skills with rocks so remedial work with pastes and sprays weren't needed.

'Don't have time right now to blather on with all the questions this raises. There are many. 'Mostly want to let each of you know your kind help gets listened to really hard and keeps working long after the thread cools off. I sure appreciate your help.

Originally Posted by pinklather

Rightly or wrongly, I've shunned pastes and sprays, preferring to develop skills with rocks so remedial work with pastes and sprays weren't needed.

Perhaps 3 years ago this thinking started to become more prevalent, myself I thought it was happening for a couple of reasons..

I thought the #1 reason pastes began to get a bad rap was the use of Balsa, many Newbs were told if you want to try it out, use a piece of Balsa, now don't get me wrong, it does work, but it works too well.. Combine an overly effective medium, and use by Newbs that over apply the product, and overuse the strop, and you get Harsh edges... These same people were also using the pastes in the exact same way as you stated in your wording, using a paste to make up for lacking skills wrongly, and it can lead to harsh edges .. Note that I said wrongly, as there are many people that do not prescribe to our (SRP) way of the hones, we are a very hone based group...Always keep in the back of your mind there is another group that gets to about what we consider a sharp blade (4K level) on hones, then brings it in from there on a loom strop and the older style pastes ie: Dovo Green, Red, Black... Now before you scoff at it I suggest you try it, Bruno mentioned this about the EU guys maybe 3 years ago in a post, I thought to myself "Huh that sounds all wrong" but I tried it out, and guess what... A smooth comfortable shave happened..

The secondary lesser reason is exactly the way you worded your response, some people began to "Brag" about producing edges so smooth off of a rock that pastes were not needed... New flash, pastes were never "Needed" they were preferred, I think Lynn put it best (as he usually does) "I have never seen a edge that can't be improved with the correct use of pastes"
I always emphasize the word correct, because that means the same thing as using a hone correctly, you have to adjust the pasted strop use to the edge..


Now before you dismiss what I posted, or accept what I posted, you should do the exact same thing I do when I read something. Go try it out for yourself, it is never a matter of proving me or anyone else right or wrong, it is a matter of wanting to chase that perfect shaving edge....


For reference, the softer the stropping surface the less the effect of the paste...

Felt
Webbing
Linen
Leather
Balsa
As you move through this list, IMHO you increase the possibility of getting a harsh edge...

Originally Posted by pinklather

I've had requests for touch-ups recently, each by new shavers, to make an edge more keen.

Something else to consider is the individual razors potential. Altho I would say most razors could be made equally sharp, not all will hold that edge for the same duration or even tolerate the same honing procedure to get there.... I also agree with Jimmy's earlier post re newb stropping skills being a factor , especially if the edge was previously ideal..