Thread: My razors won't get sharp...

This is a repost from what I put up over at BladeForums... But I'm trying to figure out the same thing. Hopefully one of you guys can help me out over here.

So I've been at this for some 4 months now... and I have yet to get a straight razor to hair-splitting sharp. I don't consider myself a novice to sharpening in general; I can get a knife hair-splitting easily.

So my equipment has been this:

1. DMT EF for setting the bevels.
2. Spyderco UF for finishing.

3. I just got a Norton 4000/8000 (but up until now, it had only been the above two.)

I've used sharpie to see where I am grinding. I am hitting the bevels (all of the marker is removed in one pass; this should mean that the bevels are very flat and I am indeed touching the edge.) I can get the razor very sharp with the DMT EF. During the process, I can drag my finger across the stone and pick up metal. However, when I go to the Spyderco UF, the blade seems less sharp. On top of that, I can barely see any metal being deposited on the stone. This is UNLIKE when I sharpen my knives. Sharpie marker IS removed from the bevels of the razor using this stone.

So I had a weird thought that maybe the Spyderco ceramic is somehow too hard for the carbon steel. So I went out and got a Norton 4000/8000 stone. It had to be finished with sandpaper on glass before use. So I went through the motions again... DMT EF... Then Norton 4000... Then 8000.

After the 8000, the bevels seem to have a brighter shine. However, the razor is STILL not hair-splitting sharp. It's about at the same point as before when I finished with the Spyderco UF for the past few months. The razor will shave, but it's not a very comfortable shave for the face (no, I don't shave other areas; I'm just saying that it can shave arm hair, for example, but you wouldn't want to shave your face with this.)

Does anybody have ANY idea what I could possibly be doing wrong? Angle can't be a problem, since the jig is "built in." I don't think pressure could be a problem; I've tried everything from heavy to light. I've heard of people finishing their razors with these stones that I'm using, so I don't think that can be the problem. Plus, I use these same stones to get hair-splitting edges on my knives. I honestly can't think of any reason that my razors aren't splitting hair. I'm about ready to get rid of all of my straight razor equipment if I can't figure this out >

Have you shaved with other straight razors? The problem may be your shaving technique and not your edge.

Are you creating and removing burrs while sharpening?

You didn't mention if the razors you're honing are shaving well ? If so I wouldn't worry about splitting hairs for now. IME that comes eventually as you continue to hone razors. Takes awhile for some of us. Did for me. Most guys seem to have an inadequate bevel set if the razor isn't shaving sharp. The Spyderco UF is one hone I never had any luck with. Some guys like it for a finishing hone but AFAIK it is not a sharpening hone. The shave off a Norton 8k is very good if you do a good job of honing. Since you're a knife guy I would suggest you try lighter pressure but that is just my supposition. Without seeing the razor, feeling it I don't know what the problem is. Maybe someone else will have some good advice for you. All I can say is don't give up.

In addition to all of the above, if you have a loupe or a scope you could monitor how the honing process goes at different grits.
What brand is the razor by the way?

Originally Posted by THG

This is a repost from what I put up over at BladeForums... But I'm trying to figure out the same thing. Hopefully one of you guys can help me out over here.

So I've been at this for some 4 months now... and I have yet to get a straight razor to hair-splitting sharp. I don't consider myself a novice to sharpening in general; I can get a knife hair-splitting easily.

So my equipment has been this:

1. DMT EF for setting the bevels.
2. Spyderco UF for finishing.

3. I just got a Norton 4000/8000 (but up until now, it had only been the above two.)

I've used sharpie to see where I am grinding. I am hitting the bevels (all of the marker is removed in one pass; this should mean that the bevels are very flat and I am indeed touching the edge.) I can get the razor very sharp with the DMT EF. During the process, I can drag my finger across the stone and pick up metal. However, when I go to the Spyderco UF, the blade seems less sharp. On top of that, I can barely see any metal being deposited on the stone. This is UNLIKE when I sharpen my knives. Sharpie marker IS removed from the bevels of the razor using this stone.

So I had a weird thought that maybe the Spyderco ceramic is somehow too hard for the carbon steel. So I went out and got a Norton 4000/8000 stone. It had to be finished with sandpaper on glass before use. So I went through the motions again... DMT EF... Then Norton 4000... Then 8000.

After the 8000, the bevels seem to have a brighter shine. However, the razor is STILL not hair-splitting sharp. It's about at the same point as before when I finished with the Spyderco UF for the past few months. The razor will shave, but it's not a very comfortable shave for the face (no, I don't shave other areas; I'm just saying that it can shave arm hair, for example, but you wouldn't want to shave your face with this.)

Does anybody have ANY idea what I could possibly be doing wrong? Angle can't be a problem, since the jig is "built in." I don't think pressure could be a problem; I've tried everything from heavy to light. I've heard of people finishing their razors with these stones that I'm using, so I don't think that can be the problem. Plus, I use these same stones to get hair-splitting edges on my knives. I honestly can't think of any reason that my razors aren't splitting hair. I'm about ready to get rid of all of my straight razor equipment if I can't figure this out >

I was a meat cutter many many years ago. I can take any of my knives and shave arm hair! With that said; Razors and Knives are as different as Black and White!!

The way I was taught to sharpen a knife is similar to honing a razor, but the entire process is actually totally Different!! Pressure, allowing the razor to be in complete contact on the hone is far different than sharpening a knife!!

I would recommend that you listen to Jim. Also take a look at Glen's and Lynn's Videos on Honing! Check them out at 'Honing' in the Forum.

Also and I think most importantly is that the 'Tests' during honing are OK, but the ultimate Test is the shave test!!

Smooth Shaving!

OH! I use a DMT 1K a King 1K the Norton 4/K/8K and a Naniwa 12 to hone my humble collection!

Originally Posted by HNSB

Have you shaved with other straight razors? The problem may be your shaving technique and not your edge.

Are you creating and removing burrs while sharpening?

I have shaved with a razor honed by Larry over at Whipped Dog. The razor I got from him shaved a bit better than mine did.

The razor that I've sharpened myself (my first one: a Dovo Best Quality) - I've done a lot of work to. And not necessarily in a good way. There is lots of hone wear, and I have created burrs while sharpening it before. There is no burr detectable by eye or by touch right now, though.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

You didn't mention if the razors you're honing are shaving well ?

I don't think it's shaving all that well, no. It's pretty rough on ATG passes. My DE razors shave much, much better (I'm not sure if that's considered a fair comparison, though.)

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Since you're a knife guy I would suggest you try lighter pressure but that is just my supposition.

I have tried that, though... I've tried light pressure and moderately heavy pressure and everything in between with no luck.

Originally Posted by mainaman

In addition to all of the above, if you have a loupe or a scope you could monitor how the honing process goes at different grits.
What brand is the razor by the way?

The main razor that I've been trying to sharpen is a Dovo Best Quality. I've also taken my Henry Sears & Son to the Norton 8k with similar results.

You mention that the "jig is built in". Are you using a knife jig on your razor?

Try not to develop burrs / wire edges with a razor.

Since you're able to shave hair on the back of your hand, I'm guessing your bevel is set ok. That leaves a problem with the sharpening or polishing.
A light touch is extremely important for razors. I know that's been mentioned, but it's worth mentioning again. By the time you get to the 8k you should be using no pressure.
Here's a link to some experimenting I did awhile ago: http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...sses-pics.html
The thread is about doing a high number of laps, but the important thing to note is how much pressure damages the edge. You shouldn't do as many laps as that; it was part of the experiment.
A few laps on a step lower grit will correct any damage done on a higher grit. That's why the pyramid method works.

So... At this point - assuming the entire edge is shaving hair on the back of your hand, go back to the 4k and do about 20-30 laps with NO pressure. Do the same on the 8k. The less pressure you use on the 8k, the better your edge will be.

I don't have the experience of the other commentators here, they have given you the best advice;
But-
We do have something in common, we are both new and we both can sharpen knives. I thought that straight razor shaving would be a cinch. What a foolish thought. As stated above, knives and straight razor sharpening is as different as night & day. I spent close to a month of day on, day off, sharpening of old razors before I could get one to shave me comfortably. I had read almost every thread here on honing and bought the best equipment.
With that said, forget about your knife skills here, they will only confuse and frustrate you with the straight razor. I did not see a remark from you about having a loop or pocket microscope to see the edge with. That sharpie is not going to give you a view of that edge with the naked eye. You think you see the edge, but you don't. I don't possibly see how you can see the true status/condition of the edge without magnification. My limited experience says that a possible answer is that you are cutting a bevel on the shoulder of the bevel that was there to begin with; there for you are never touching the real edge. You cannot see this problem without magnification. This problem kept me on one razor for almost a week.Thank God it was a wedge or it would be a metal toothpick now.
As one of the members said in a thread that I read, "You are flying in the dark without magnification"

Again take my advice with a grain of salt; I've only been doing this for 6 months. I hope I helped.
John

Originally Posted by Hirlau

I don't have the experience of the other commentators here, they have given you the best advice; "I don't possibly see how you can see the true status/condition of the edge without magnification."
John

+1 Amen to that, John.

I have read somewhere on this site that one does not get good results sharpening until having honed at least 100 different razors. Now that may sound a bit extreme, but the main point is this: Do not expect to become an expert on your first attempts at honing. At least that is my understanding. I'll leave to others suggestions to be followed. Good luck!!