Chinese 12k leaves edge dull?

**Lesslemming** · 07-17-2011, 12:14 PM

The BBW is a fairly hard stone. It does not play in the league of some Asagis (j-nats) or Arkansas, but it´s fairly hard.
Obiously the BBW is not nearly as hard as the PHIG, since the slurry is absolutely purple and it does take awhile.
So I think other naturals would work very well. Maybe even some synthetics might work.
A barber hone would probably work, as well

**mainaman** · 07-17-2011, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Lesslemming

I am a defender (or inventor? I don't really know.) of the theory that the PHIG performs best (if at all) when lapped to perfection.

I came across this about three years ago when I bought my first PHIG and everybody was raving how good or bad it was.
I didn´t get good results with it until I finished the surface. When you slide your fingernail across the stone and you feel a little unsmoothness,
you´re not where you want to be with the PHIG. It should feel as smooth as glass.

This applies to Jnats too as far as I am concerned. To prep a Jnat finisher for use I go from worn off 320 DMT, trough Coticule , to another Jnat of similar hardness. Also constant use of fine tomonagura makes sure the surface is very smooth at all times.

**wojtek** · 07-17-2011, 07:48 PM

So basically, the idea is to make hone surface glaze, is that correct? Does that apply to every type polishing hone? What does Shapton 12k look like, is it glassy or matt?

**Lesslemming** · 07-18-2011, 08:27 AM

Well basically that´s what I do, even though I wasn´t aware of it until now.
I lap my finishers on my DMT 325 and 600.
The 600 leaves a nice mirror and a good, dense surface.

The Shapton 12k shows a good mirror, but is kind of matte at the same time.
That´s because of its milky colour. But yes, the Shapton 12k reflects images quite good

**DerekC** · 07-18-2011, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Lesslemming

A barber hone would probably work, as well

I was touching up some blades yesterday and ran the non-glossy side against the C-nat to see if I could grab a little slurry, and the Swaty left a nice light-brown trail of slurry on the PHIG. I diluted to water, and it left a great edge on my blades. That was, of course, with using a bit of pressure to draw a slurry, but I'd imagine using light pressure would give a nice, fine finish on the natural. I've had surprisingly successful edges with the first and only PHIG I've bought. Yes, it's drastically slow and yes, I'll be buying a faster finisher in the future, but for what I use it for, it's got a nice bang-for-the-buck.

**wojtek** · 07-18-2011, 02:56 PM

That's interesting. I applied slurry on mine PHIG using another C12k slurry stone but it felt like low grade stone, it left visible grooves on the spine and on the bevel. When I ran fingernail it's not polishing but getting matt instead. Even my Esher lapped on 2k sandpaper doesn't leave the bevel polished - it fails on HHT. I guess I'm going to save some more money and go for Shapton 12k

**HNSB** · 07-18-2011, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by wojtek

Even my Esher lapped on 2k sandpaper doesn't leave the bevel polished - it fails on HHT. I guess I'm going to save some more money and go for Shapton 12k

In all likelihood its not a problem that getting another stone will resolve.
I suppose its possible that you have a dud for a PHIG, but it's really unlikely that you have a did Escher. To have both of them be not usable as finishers... The Shapton will probably disappoint as well.

**zib** · 07-18-2011, 03:45 PM

It seems no one wants to go there...But is it possible it's his "honing"....?

And "HHT" forget about HHT, unless you have a standard test hair, the results can vary. Dovo uses sythetic hair or something at there factory prior to sending out their blades, Check Youtube. Each razor passes the HHT on a standard "Test" hair, not human.

Shave with the razor, See how it feels against your skin, If you keep honing until it passes the HHT, you'll have a Toothpick for a razor. Shave....!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ACJrAI3SxM

**Lesslemming** · 07-18-2011, 05:29 PM

I guess I'm going to save some more money and go for Shapton 12k

If a perfectly mirrored bevel is what you are looking for, the Shapton 12k is a good option.
Of course you need to consider two things. First is that the Shapton 12k requires a good surface finish. I prefer lapping mine with the DMT Fine.
Secondly the Shapton 12k won´t produce a mirror by itself. The surface needs to be free of deeper scratchers, before you hit the Shapton 12k.

Many natural stones produce a matte finish, probably due to different sizes of particles, producing small irregular scratches that scatter light, rather than reflect it.
That´s not a bad thing per se! But if your natural stone is of a good quality (i.e. it will not immediately release particles when used with water only),
and the finish is mirrored already (like from the Naniwa Super 8.000) acouple of strokes, somewhat around 30-40 should get you where you want to be edge wise,
without compimising the polish of the bevel. It takes a bit practise but can be done.
Neither my vintage thuringian nor my Shoubudani produce scratches if used cautiously. But non of them actually produces a mirror, if it is not already there.

I suggest you set the bevel on your razor and polish it on synthetics until the bevel shines and the razor shaves sufficiently.
After that hit your Esher (without slurry) and see if it improves your edge. Check every 10 strokes.
HHT works great for me, but may not for you. Try different test methods to verify the quality of the edge

Btw. just to clarify what I said this morning:

The surface of the stone Chinese 12k, as well as the Shapton 12k is a mirror.
The Chinese 12k when used cautioisly may be able to hold a good mirrored edge, but that was not what I meant.
Of course it will not produce a mirror on a bevel that is not yet mirrored

**wojtek** · 07-18-2011, 07:07 PM

Thanks for your last reply Lesslemming, very useful information for a newb as I am. And so I honed today again, I started from C12k with slurry diluting it with water during honing process. Next I gave it a few passes on Eshner and finally on Arkansas to get that mirror look I sought. The last "honing station" was CrOx balsa paddle. The spine literally became mirror-like surface and the bevel very smooth. Apparently the razor couldn't pass HHT and the shaving was very uncomfortable. I figured I could use Allegro paddle. It's a one side strop and the other some kind of synthetic hone. It's surface is more aggressive than both C12k and Eshner but apparently after 30 passes the razor finally passed HHT on thinnest hair I could get. But the bevel and spine lost its mirror look. Now I wonder why using higher grade hones like Eshner and CrOx that give mirror-like surface to a bevel make a razor quite dull compared to honing on lower grade hone.

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