Thread: I'm not sure what to say about this.

Originally Posted by Lynn

I'm lost. The recommendation to try the methods out and see for yourself would be enough for most people. The need to feed the BS seems more important now for some reason. I am thinking this thread is really serving no further purpose.

I'm curious to hear from other people. I already wrote my response to Lynn as a response to a PM he sent me about this.

Am I feeding the BS? I don't keep up with the thread regularly, but thought that people might be interested in seeing a new video that's relevant to what they've been talking about. The thread was updated just a few hours before my post, so I didn't think I was reviving any dead thing.

Anything on my side that looks like support of Carter is my reaction to some of the harsher judgments on this thread, which I saw as being the hypocritical counterpart of what Murray was accused of doing. Sorry to stir any pots or get any panties in bunches; it was not my intention. The intention was to add a little information and levelheadedness.

To lighten the mood I made a few memes from the video.

The first one sums up the entire video



This one is for Brad

I guess I'm of the camp that doesn't see the big deal about what this guy's doing.

From where I stand, this thread (along with its various related media) has looked more like dialog taken from Salem Massachusetts in 1692 than a discussion on a modern-day hobbyist website.
Someone clue me in on what must be the obviously immense risk of letting this guy's opinion--or method--or whatever--stand without the countless caveats that membership here has vehemently attached to it.
Are we worried that a new or prospective straight razor shaver will get the wrong idea? That we must set the record straight? To that I would say that any new guy who refuses to watch more than one youtube video on a hobby he's interested in is not a guy who will enjoy straight razor shaving in the first place (correct methods or not). He just doesn't have the interest or the constitution. And he's probably an idiot.
I think what Lynn (and others before him) said is correct, try it out for yourself and see. Be open minded. The problem now, though, is that point of view came to this thread way too late, and has been drowned out by what I would refer to as general "player hating."

I just watched this long 23 minute video. I hate that the guy is upset about forum comments and such. I just don't like conflict. Anywho, I'm not an expert, nor do I play one on TV. I do find some of the explanations make sense and appear thought out. For instance... 6k being highest grit. Well, if the science behind "backwards" honing and stone particles, etc. is correct; this would make sense as to why the 6k would be sufficent.

I can find a lot of truth to the stropping on flat surface versus a hanging strop. When I've honed it's seemed the blade felt sharper right off the rock and got a little duller once stropped. I thought (and it could be) that stropping simply smoothed it all out.

Who knows? I find the theories interesting.

Do they work better? At all? Same results? Hope the challenged person steps up and reports the results! I hope his edge impresses Mr. Carter as well and vise versa. This way we all can learn!

Originally Posted by rickboone

When I've honed it's seemed the blade felt sharper right off the rock and got a little duller once stropped. I thought (and it could be) that stropping simply smoothed it all out.

Then I would question your stropping technique, your edge sharpness should improve with stropping.


Mr.Carter could have gained some respect had he kept that video formal and straight-forward, instead of throwing the cheap shots and counter-arguments.

Originally Posted by Blix

Then I would question your stropping technique, your edge sharpness should improve with stropping.


Mr.Carter could have gained some respect had he kept that video formal and straight-forward, instead of throwing the cheap shots and counter-arguments.

I agree. Like I said, I'm not the best stropper. I've since learned a lot had to do with my then technique as well as strop position, etc. And, yes, I can agree the comments were not needed. Cheap shots are not needed on any end.

Ruff crowd........

Oh, so sad. I hope the open razor community isn't judged collectively for the posts in these kinds of threads. We can take pot shots at each other day after day... growing more acrid all the while.

Men have different qualities of skin, and different beards. Some people can shave themselves with harsher edges successfully without excessive irritation, even to ATG (I guess). I've read some dramatic tales of old-timers (like older relatives) doing some pretty edge-of-your-seat dry shaving, for example. Let's face facts: this guy is an American Blade Smith Gold medalist.. he's got cojones... his skin is probably of sterner stuff than most of us will ever have. I know, it's difficult, suppressing our envy. Just think of how tough and manly his androgenic hormone levels get with all the bladesmithing stuff! I get oilier skin just thinking about it!

I think video can't show us enough. We have to physically, visually inspect the condition of his shaven areas in person the day after his documented shaves (and he would also have to finish the blade he shaved with in our presence to assure it is all "legit"). We can always suspect modifications were done after the honing video ended. What hurts the credibility is that the honing video, from what I've read, was reportedly edited to shorten the time of honing, if true that would undermine the tutorial-aspect of the video. But is that editing admitted from the man himself? Bleh...

I really like the concept of traditional Japanese spine-leading honing and had those same thoughts myself about it, wondering if it was superior. I liked Dr. Moss's stropping-motion (spine-leading) strokes on the finisher before edge-first strokes when "refreshing" his edges. I thought if my stropping before refreshing the edge were not perfect than using the stropping motion on the hard, uncompromising, ceramic hone (my finisher) would be like "super-stropping" and help reduce any micro-chipping with the imperfect edge's return to the finisher with the edge-leading strokes. I have heard it whispering imperfections when I did this (edge-trailing)... but then I went back to edge-first to finish the refreshening. Maybe at that level of fineness it is less of an issue.

I'm not advocating doing all honing edge-trailing. I'm not saying MC isn't achieving results that are satisfactory for him, with his face.

Easier to form burrs from spine-first/edge-trailing? Beyond acceptable pressure for edge-first honing made safer with edge-trailing strokes? I'm not taking sides, just trying to understand why the differences may still produce satisfactory results (if they're not faked!). I'm not accusing anyone of anything. Just sayin'.

I thought subtle rounding of the edge may explain why an open razor past its prime because of excessive thinning of the spine (and the idea is that the way many razors were made (economically) is that heat treatment made the edge much harder than the spine, as validated by testing the metal's hardness on different regions of the blades), thereby helping justify the existence of those pasted hanging strop's rounding effect. But, of course, MC did not show the tautness of proper hanging strop technique. We're so bitter to each other!

I have an antique store razor that needed to be re-beveled with 3 layers of the electrical tape in order to have an obtuse enough angle primary edge/bevel in order to maintain structural stability through multiple shaves. I monitored with a microscope. I saw the edge collapse after a single shave. Twice. That razor's edge has had several incarnations. We don't live in a perfect world where all the razors we obtain were treated in the same manner and experience the same life-cycle. Removing chips except for the smallest, at the discretion of the individual honer, may logically entail using tape to preserve the intended longevity of the razor. Even open razor honers differ on this subject. Point is I had a collapsing edge, fixed it with obtusifying the edge with tape!

Maybe he doesn't know what he doesn't know. Ignorant of his ignorance. Ignorance (and stupidity (not the same thing at all)) can have a self-reinforcing effect. This makes sense if you think about it. No insults to anyone, not being crass or witty or anything. He doesn't know about the comparative hardness of different parts of the razor or consider the different lives of open razors. Or maybe he just won't go into that for brevity's sake! His philosophy of shaving razors as tools meant to be used is valid and respectable. But if people want to protect their precious gold spines on their fancy schmancy razors then that's their problem. I like his philosophy, but I have to tape to remove chips (out of my own philosophy of utilizing the tape for its beneficial use rather then blindly all the time as an unthinking rule) to respect the tool for what it is and its own individual condition. Doesn't mean I wouldn't untape and eliminate the secondary bevel, returning it to a single bevel (er, of a double-beveled edge.. you know what I mean!) razor.

The larger jumps between grits is also not beyond the traditional open razor honers.. The more pressure applied to the much finer grit (compared to our preferred smaller jump progressions) the easier it will be to bring it up to that level... except for protests of excessive pressure. Removing the burr... the perpendicular scrape (on wood, or cork, etc.) seems drastic... perhaps exceptional pressure control? The chromium paste finishing removing a fine burr?

I didn't have problems with burrs (that I can tell) from my early honing with the standard open-razor progression of grits. I think they were naturally made smaller and smaller with each successive jump in fineness and eventually disintegrated on their own. I have had burrs form from excessive pressure and edge-trailing heavier strokes (trying to quickly grind out chips from eBetray razors). Haven't been forming (that I can tell, or large enough) since going the slow-and-steady route, edge-first, light pressure. I can vary the pressure quite a bit (relatively) on that first, chip-removing stage on the coarsest hone, and on the new bevel's refinement on the Norton 1k. Could the drastic burr-removal compensate somewhat for the heavier pressure (where burr forms more easily/larger)? Does the stropping stroke on the hones create less stress on the edge, minimizing the edge's imperfections, enabling a less ragged edge after the burr breaks off?

I know for sure that on cheap, unlapped aluminum oxide (India) sharpening stones for my cutlery that edge-trailing was very smart to minimize the ugliness that results from an imperfect hone. But I would think with the kind of levelling/lapping utilized in razor honing, making the hone as true a plane as possible, may justify going edge-first (which in theory creates less burr?).

Don't like holding the toe on the hone, Murray. But it's his razor and his blade's shape is fine for him. A lot of beginners have adopted that style, as have some other people who seem experienced (the kind that post videos). I have monitored my own blades without pushing the toe on the hone with the other hand. I was initially heel heavy as a honer goes, then toe heavy, holding with one hand and not holding the toe on the hone with the second hand. If I can go either way maybe someone else can adjust their own technique such that they don't change the toe enough for it to matter for them. It's his razor. And his point that we aren't there, we can't experience exactly what he's doing while he's honing is a valid defense.

Because it's his face and his razor we can't compare well at all. We need to see the subtler effects on his skin the next day, anyway, considering the prospect of shaving with an open razor on a regular basis.. That he's had better shaves from knives is a warning light, so where is he coming from saying that? And if he put more time into honing a razor with his own technique would his opinion change? Would it also depend on which/what kind of razor he had honed with this controversial technique?

Because it's his face, not mine, and I do believe some people have skin capable of taking a beating, and I'm not there to visually inspect his skin the following two days (to be thorough) after the shave I'm not going to ever want to shave with his razor or with a razor he's honed. I'd give it a try, but not without trepidation. I've looked at my own razor edges and given myself the "pioneer" shave, you know, the frontiersman shave with a historically accurate crummy-yet-functional edge. I can shave with it, but only to learn about the range of acceptability, safety, and after-effects on my skin. Someone with different skin could very easily have very different "skin conditioning" consequences. I just did it to learn, not seeking a great, good, or even satisfactory shave.

I like what he says of the difference between edge-first or trailing, and differences in the quality of the steel being a factor. I don't like his take on edge angle geometry in relation to spinal health because he doesn't explore that in enough depth (which may be due to time constraints or ignorance). I don't have problems with burrs and recall forming burrs larger than I've ever seen honing razors when doing it with excessive pressure and edge-trailing. But he does a number of things differently, so there may be balancing/compensating forces at work.

It's intriguing, isn't it? My impression? Fast and dirty method. Hey, some of us like it that way <cough>. But it doesn't look to be as good as the standard approach to creating a shaving edge. Still, individual skill level and the subtlety that entails.. it seems like aggrandizing behavior, spelling out his site may turn people off and makes us very suspicious, and the honing method makes us suspicious enough already! I don't blame the "Traditionalists". I can't think Mr. Carter would intentionally bring so much negative attention to himself by this provocation... unless he thought he could carve out a profitable slice of the shaving pie for his future open razor honing enterprise. Or maybe not. Suspicious behavior! Threat level elevated! Is he arrogant? Does he enjoy making waves? Is he good (great?) at what he does? Is he a handsome, skilled, accomplished man with tough, resilient, manly-manly man-skin that makes us so jealous we find ourselves compelled to resent him? Contest him? Hate him!? The shave seems to work for him. But that's for him. We know we wouldn't want to hone and send a razor like that to other people. Is he a threat to the open razor community? Probably not. I see problems on both sides. I'm intrigued with the demonstration. I think it's a healthy opportunity for inquiry and discourse. But I have an intuitive distaste for his methods. It certainly seems an unfeasibly harder method for the beginning honer. But under the careful personal tutelage of someone who successfully uses this method? If the pupil had tough enough skin or developed that level of control or... etc. etc.

We piss him off. He pisses us off. Still, I'd like to see him change his stance on taping. I don't think he's trying to turn us over to the dark side of honing. We could be a little more open minded, at least it seems to work for him. I find this interesting. I certainly wouldn't like it if it was faked. But he's an established figure, albeit not in the world of open razors. I just hope people don't cop out and try to do it the fast and dirty way, emulating someone with his own particular touch, developed ability level and that manly, manly man-mug he's sportin' (don't you just hate Murray Carter?!). New word: facelest! Usage: "I totally wanna facelest Murray Carter after a shave like that!" I need that word to become real, to have accepted usage, because I was facelested in a college library while reading in this very forum!

I'm sorry for this long-winded pseudo-rant. It's been fun and interesting. I have learned a lot, not all of it about honing... I hope this thread doesn't get closed, because I think closing it may fuel more conflict and controversy.

A great man once said (or maybe he was on some hardcore. illegal street drugs and made a series of mistakes and the officers went too far and he dreaded the consequences of what was sure to follow): "Can't we just... get along?"

He starts out by putting his money where his mouth is-- shaving with the razor honed in his last video. He clearly is adept at using a straight razor, and then he backs up each point with knowledge about steel most of us don't have. Where's the problem? Personally I'm very intrigued, and always willing to see something in a new light.

Of course he makes sure he's got the watermark for his website in the video, but I don't think that immediately makes him a charlatan-- he's honing an old German razor with a natural waterstone. It seems as if he's genuinely just trying to add to the pool of knowledge regarding straight razor honing.

Ya hes a good looking dude, ya hes got a good looking wife, nice house, makes neck knives that I couldn't possibly hope to afford (If your reading this, I will totally back you forever if you send me one! pm for details ), but....wait what was I saying? UH oh Ya I still dont think this is a good method to preach to Newb's. I'm not saying he cant hone a razor. I'm not saying he cant shave comfortably with a shish kabob skewer, just that he should either a) post his video with more close ups and explanations of what to feel for j or b) post a warning that you should not try this until you are comfortable using stones in the first place.

JMHO take it for what its worth

when it comes down to it, we (wet shaver's) are part of a very small minority of the world of shaving individuals. We should be able to ball bust and call people on their knuckle headedness, but we should not make it personal or spiteful.

Did I call him a tool in my first post? Yes, but I call my brother a tool all the time when he acts or talks like one and seriously Mr. Carter does have a carny type pitch. I do have respect for his abilities to create functional works of art and I would try one of his razors to see for myself, but I do not think I will be switching to his method of razor honing.

Hope everyone is having a great night! I know I am...I bought a custom two band silvertip, but shhhh dont tell SWMBO!!