Thread: I'm not sure what to say about this.

Originally Posted by jeness

This honing method wastes steel, most likely scratches the steel above the bevel, makes for an uneven bevel, and uneven wear at the toe of the razor. I would never buy a razor from someone who makes beginner mistakes like this.

exactly, that index finger push he does has to be pretty significant if you want to raise a burr on a razor.

I will say I've had mechanics give me bad advice because they think they understand how a car works because they're mechanics. The underlying principles escape them. They survive as mechanics because they can fix things despite themselves. This is where the reference to physics comes from.

I understand stopping is an action you perform. I also understand that removing the steel from the tow of the razor doesn't cause a frown. I just wanted to describe two results which may occur if someone (who maybe isn't a master of the trade) tries to mimic Carter's actions.

Carter may be a master honer, but I'm not sure he's the best teacher. Certainly if a newbie were to try to mimic his methods, his chances for success would be less than if he were to try the methods espoused by SRP.

I guess that's my point.

Originally Posted by jeness

This honing method wastes steel, most likely scratches the steel above the bevel, makes for an uneven bevel, and uneven wear at the toe of the razor. ...

Exactly. Jeness you provide a very good contrast about the attitude of a maker as different from an end user. From his perspective and mine and other makers, if it gets worn down faster, or it breaks during use, you can always make another blade. To a craftsman, material is cheap. Steel is the least expensive part of the process for the most part. You have to treat it as a consumable item in the process. You respect different aspects.

To a person who spent hard earned cash on an expensive hand crafted tool, it's priceless and treated with a different sort of respect.

To finish a thought I began earlier, perhaps my arrogance does not show so much, as I have slowed much in my years and am more willing to just sit and listen. I remember a time in my life when I was not so much fun to be around. Hopefully those days are past and I learned something about accepting others knowledge as valuable, whether I adopt their methods or not, whether I like them or not, whether they like me or not. I know how I do things in my shop to get the job done with the tools I have. But I have paid attention to how many others get the job done in their shops. Not because their way is better, but because it's good to know many ways. The teacher in me wants the learner to succeed. They have to be able to succeed when they go home to their tools so it's very important to know their beginnings, their strengths and build on those. Not to say, "This is the only way...". It never is.

The cheap Dutchman in me wanted to build a brick furnace that could smelt steel that could be used over and over and over again without all the time wasted rebuilding walls from clay. I wanted to discover a cheaper, reproducible method so I could get to the business of reproducing steel like the old ways, but using modern stuff. After twenty melts or so, what I learned was that the old way of doing the furnace walls from clay was the best way after all. There were good, subtle and some not so subtle reasons for settling on that method over several thousand years. So much for believing I had a better idea. Talking with some folks who really know this kind of thing (all older gentlemen who I'd like to grow up to be someday..) I get smiles, then realize they had already done the same thing themselves and allowed me to make the discovery on my own.

Knowledge is important in the beginning. How you wear it later is much more important. I remember something one of my martial skills teachers said, perhaps this is a little helpful..."You are always working on the belt you got last." My interpretation is that you have earned a higher rank, a better degree, but it's not that you earned it that's important in the end, it's how you grow into it. I have found that principle to cut well across many disciplines.

Originally Posted by paco664

mr, carter is admittedly highly skilled in metal work... he was trained in japan by masters and he makes his living building edged tools for people to use......

why the disrespect for someone who is a master of their trade???

I'll let you in on a secret.
When I was still in the consulting business, writing low level systems software (the stuff people take for granted, like kernel drivers and on-board firmware) I was very good. I was not just 'good enough', I was better than all of my colleagues at what I did, and I had an unquenchable thirst for more knowledge, and would happily read 100s of pages of e.g. ' Windows System Internals', 'The Windows Driver Model', 'linux driver programming' or even a reference guide on assembly programming for DSPs, while on holiday on the beach. I could reasonably be called master in my trade.

Yet I know my limitations. I know my mastery only was relevant in the niche I chose for myself. And I happily admitted it every time it was relevant.

For example, I know almost diddly squat about internet programming and web thingamajiggies. I am only slightly above web-illiterate.
If I were to start preaching and broadcasting statements and ideas regarding internet stuff, I would expect to be called out on that, and taken firmly to task by people who actually know that niche.

Just because someone is a master in one domain does not mean he is owed deference when he steps out of that domain and starts making bold statements of questionable accuracy.

I've got a few junk blades, and I'm going to try this for my own curiosity.

Originally Posted by rodb

I've got a few junk blades, and I'm going to try this for my own curiosity.

Ahhhhh and the mistake happens, see this is the problem, as you are a "Razor Honer", and you know that pressure and burrs are a bad thing, therefore you doing the same thing as he shows, will not give the same outcome as a inexperienced person would get...


Which brings us back to the Vids and the statements that are written and spoken in them, he should take this thread and discussion as a compliment, because if he were a nobody, then it wouldn't be here.. But he is a somebody in the knife world, therefore what he produced will be listened too regardless of how fundamentally wrong it is to what is proved practice.. We are not talking technique difference, we are talking a complete reverse of what we have found that works...

"Proof of the Pudding" comes from his statement in the shaving vid "Mr Carter has found that his neck knives give a better shave with less irritation than the SR"

To go back to the Martial Arts analogy which I am pretty comfortable with too, "When you step into a stranger's Dojo, make sure you walk in as a humble student, regardless of rank in your Dojo"

Whatever principles apply to the knife honing, also apply to the razor honing. Grit progression, angle sharpening, etc. and many times I find knife honing harder than that of a razor. His way of honing is self taught, and apparently he has spend less than an hour learning what he is doing in this video. "bread knifing" on wood for better edge? Cutting a belt? touching a 1000 grit stone, after that a 6000 and then CrOx without even washing his hands or the razor (forget the grit progression gap)? Or the back honing method? I did this when I was 8 years old, and my grandma said "this is the wrong way to sharpen a knife". I refuse to accept this person as a professional with anything that has to do with edged tools (accept selling them as a part time job). I don't think anyone will trust his sharpening method no mater how inexperienced he is. (Sorry if this reply sounds angry, it isn't)

Originally Posted by Bruno

Just because someone is a master in one domain does not mean he is owed deference when he steps out of that domain and starts making bold statements of questionable accuracy.

Or uploads hot dog videos of himself shaving with spoons, knives, etc. The whole "carny" presentation gave him no credibility with me; whether he makes knives, razors, spoons, or widgets.
If anyone is truly a master at anything, they don't have to resort to this level of medicine show theatrics.

There is so much I can say about this vid and Mr. Carter but I don't have the time at hand to do so. The best I can do at this time is to say that if he was genuinely interested in making a statement on honing razors he should have used his tool of choice, the internet, to research the accepted approach to honing razors and tested the results of a known and respected professional person providing honed razors before putting his 'alternate approach' out to the world as his gospel. I am all for being unconventional (ask those that have seen me hone) but I don't need to experience his work to know how it will measure up to the SRP standards. There was a time where my honing wasn't very good but I paid attention to the details and learned. What I learned to avoid is a lot of what Mr. Carter is promoting. He should try some quality edges and then publish another vid with his learnings if he is able to admit his short comings in the current vid. If some of ya really want to try his techniques please have at it and let us know of your findings. I have too many vouchers for my time to invest in following a path that has no earned value like the one Mr. Carter is presenting through this thread.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

... To go back to the Martial Arts analogy which I am pretty comfortable with too, "When you step into a stranger's Dojo, make sure you walk in as a humble student, regardless of rank in your Dojo"

Another good rule.