Thread: coticule connundrum

Unfortunately, I've read this story many times. There's such an allure with Coticules, especially if your new. I don't know what it is, but it's a shame, and I feel sorry for all the guys who buy stones that are so so, or duds. Of course, TSS is going to sell you a Coticule, That's what they sell and since he sells Coticules, he has pick of the liter when he receives his stones from Ardennes. He probaby has a very good one.

It's always best when your starting out to use/master a synthetic hone, like the Nortons, or Naniwa. You'll get more consistent results. Coticules are naturals, and can be hit or miss. Like you said, said some guys go through several before they find one they like. I'm not sure if you had the stone tested or not, but some are slow, or just good as finishers. Most of the bland looking green ones are very slow, like La Grise.

There's a couple of tests you can do to your stone. You can scratch the surface wth your fingernail. If you can see a nice scratch, it's soft. If you see nothing, it's hard. Softer stones cut better, hard one's are better finishers. The more stones you handle, the more this test makes sense.

You can also raise a moderate slurry, and do backstrokes on your blade, sets of 20, and see if the slurry darkens, Once it starts to darken, you know steel is being removed. That should give you some indication on your stones speed. Lot's of variations in natural stones. It's a crap shoot, unless it has an "Escher" label on it.

Do you know what vein it is...?

My first stone was a Coti, and I still love that thing! But that's not to say that it didn't need to earn that love. Man that thing gave me fits, but it finally gave up its secrets! Smooth shaves were the result. But it'll never get my blades as sharp as some other mediums, that's for sure!

Here are some of the observations I found - "for me and my Coti:"

- Using a Coti means you need to be very aware of the pressure you are applying at all stages for each and every razor you use. You are not only learning the Coti, you are learning what each blade wants from it too.

Ok and now for some voodoo stuff that might make some here laugh lol .

- With the exception of bevel setting a stubborn blade (I just cant do it on mine), my razors like it best if used from start to finish. In other words I don't jump from an 8K to my Coti.

- That said, not every blade I have loves my Coti equally.

- When you are done with your slurry work, wash both the razor and Coti of any debris before doing a finish with just water.

- More than any stone I have (and I don't have many so take heed), watch for feel! Resistance of any kind is an indication of something; as are sounds.

- Last but not least don't ever get lazy with your Coti and rush any aspect or you are sunk. If you are getting a weird feel or sound at any point in the progression don't move on by diluting or what have you thinking you'll get it at the next stage. Moreover, if you find you missed a bit on the heal or toe or whatever... go back to the beginning.

YMMV.

For just touching up, I'd go without slurry. Coticule slurry is nice when you are setting a bevel and need to remove a lot of metal. Once your edge is already sharp, I feel it dulls the edge more than anything.

Cotis remain puzzling for me. Some of the afficianados claim any coti will work - you just have to learn it well. I think they tell the truth on this, but that the number of guys that can do this is very small. Of the very experienced coti users, I asked - how many did you buy and sell before you found the joy? The lower numbers were 20-30. I'm not in the tax bracket to do that - especially w/ the price hikes a year or so back. Other stones have been more consistently reliable for a larger number of blades - speaking only for myself. Now that said, I still use 2 of the 3 I have - quite frequently. One Petite Blanche is insanely fast cuting. A Veinette has been a fine all-arounder. I can get a good shaving edge from either, but only once or twice has the edge rivaled my preferred rocks. The romantic draw of the natural is undeniable. They're unique, often nice to look at. And for some razors they just do magic. But for the rest of the razors - not so much. No doubt the variation in stones means that some are incredible, the majority are just okay. Their finish *IS* quite face-friendly - and that's not a small thing. All the heartburn of learning the naturals gives me a very healthy respect for synthetics. The rock I lust after these days is synthetic.

Dripp,

I have two (2) coti's - a La Veinette & a La Verte. I really enjoy using these stones, but I always finish my blades on a Naniwa 12k SS. The coti's (for me) just don't give the 'sharpness' I like.

For real 'ease' of use, the synthetic waterstones (e.g. Naniwa, Norton etc.) are hard to beat

For your current 'meat & potatoes' of honing, I would stick with the Norton, but use the coti's on a spare blade if you have one, to build up knowledge as to how your coti performs with various slurry densities & with plain water.

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

Originally Posted by zib

Unfortunately, I've read this story many times. There's such an allure with Coticules, especially if your new. I don't know what it is, but it's a shame, and I feel sorry for all the guys who buy stones that are so so, or duds.

IMHO it is the misconception that one stone does it all. People look for the one hit wonder, in this case stone and read all the posts about how wonderful coticules are and jump right in. Guys being new to honing have no idea that coticules being natural stones can vary a lot in qualities and not all fit all. Unfortunately there are a lot of fanboys out there that would tell one how great coticule is, and it is but in it's own right not as an absolute stone.

@ OP:
Stick with a good tested synthetic stone set and learn to use it to perfection. After that if you feel the need add naturals to the set. Honing is acquired skill and majority of new honers will not have great success with naturals right off the bat. Some experience with synthetics and understanding how the bevels are formed and how the edge refining works will definitely make the transition much easier.

I do like coticules...some, but I like them because they're pretty and they have a satisfying feel. I had to get four to get one finisher that I really liked, and the finisher cost me about $300 (it is large, courtesy of disburden). The same rules apply that apply to any other stone. If the stone is not particularly abrasive, it's going to be slow and dissatisfying (perhaps this is the issue with the lagrise stones, I have one of those, and it feels rubbery). If the stone is soft, it won't be able to finish an edge well. If it's hard enough to hold its grit under a moderately light stroke, it will probably be able to impart a good finish like any other natural stone, but the water has to stay totally clear for that to be the case.

We know enough to know that the underlying garnet particles are large. The only way to get them to work finely is for them to stay affixed to the surface of the stone and wear some, just like any other natural stone.

I'd consider them a gentleman's stone (that's a term we use in woodworking where the appeal of something is more than just its effectiveness, and you pay for the appeal sometimes more than you pay for the effectiveness). Sometimes you see advice that vintage stones are better finishers. I don't know if that's the case or not. I do have a super dense vintage coti labeled "DEEP ROCK" on the back, and with a thick slurry it cuts as fast or almost as fast as a shapton 1k. That should tell someone something when they're thinking about using it as a finisher - it's going to take a lot of fiddling to get a result that will probably be subpar to the finish from a stone that only does the fine finish work well.

Most stones are cheap except for the very finest, and even at that, there are some very cheap fine finishers. There is no rule that if you pay a lot for a coticule, a japanese natural, or anything else ,that you'll definitely get a fine finisher. The natural stones are a gentleman's game either because of their price (eschers) or their variability (coticules, arkansas, etc).

Even with a translucent arkansas, which for me gives a keener edge on carbon steel than any other natural stone I have, if the stone has a freshly scuffed surface, it will still not make a finished edge.

Personally, if I had to have one reliable finisher, I'd rather have a single inexpensive jnat (like from aframestokyo that is *labeled* as a razor stone "iwasaki choice" or whatever) or a single 8x2 translucent arkansas stone that can be had cheaply. Both of those would make a finer edge than the average coticule.

Originally Posted by zib

Do you know what vein it is...?

It's a La Grise

My new one is also lagrise. I could get a shave off of it, but like probably 90 of the coticules around, it wasn't the kind of shave I'm used to after using japanese naturals, translucent arkansas stones or chromium oxide after a synthetic.

From what I gather using my coarser coticules, they can be brought up a notch with linen/felt, etc and a good strop. After an escher or japanese natural, that treatment isn't as critical, but the coticules usually benefit more from it.

It certainly would provide a good edge if you managed to get a balsa strop with chromium oxide. That may hurt some folks' hearts a little, but the results are what they are when you do that...sharp.

Originally Posted by Dripp

It's a La Grise

Yeah, I thought so...Unfortunately, they are very hard, Usually used only as a finisher. The one hone fit's all doesn't work so will with La Grise ime.

From what I hear, and I've spoke to Maurice (He's the owner at Ardennes Coticule) The only stones they're producing these days are "La Grise"
I personally don't like them, but maybe someone has some experience with La Grise, that's helpful.

If you want a good Coticule, keep your eyes open here on the classifieds. Look for La petite blance, Dressante, and some of the other veins mentioned. It your truly not happy with it see, if Jarod will take it back.

P.S. I like Coticule too, Every once in a while I'll get a blade that will benefit from one. I find brittle edges react well to Coticules. I use a Dressante to start, and a La Nouvelle to finish.

Good Luck to you.