Thread: coticule connundrum

Cotis remain puzzling for me. Some of the afficianados claim any coti will work - you just have to learn it well. I think they tell the truth on this, but that the number of guys that can do this is very small. Of the very experienced coti users, I asked - how many did you buy and sell before you found the joy? The lower numbers were 20-30. I'm not in the tax bracket to do that - especially w/ the price hikes a year or so back. Other stones have been more consistently reliable for a larger number of blades - speaking only for myself. Now that said, I still use 2 of the 3 I have - quite frequently. One Petite Blanche is insanely fast cuting. A Veinette has been a fine all-arounder. I can get a good shaving edge from either, but only once or twice has the edge rivaled my preferred rocks. The romantic draw of the natural is undeniable. They're unique, often nice to look at. And for some razors they just do magic. But for the rest of the razors - not so much. No doubt the variation in stones means that some are incredible, the majority are just okay. Their finish *IS* quite face-friendly - and that's not a small thing. All the heartburn of learning the naturals gives me a very healthy respect for synthetics. The rock I lust after these days is synthetic.

Dripp,

I have two (2) coti's - a La Veinette & a La Verte. I really enjoy using these stones, but I always finish my blades on a Naniwa 12k SS. The coti's (for me) just don't give the 'sharpness' I like.

For real 'ease' of use, the synthetic waterstones (e.g. Naniwa, Norton etc.) are hard to beat

For your current 'meat & potatoes' of honing, I would stick with the Norton, but use the coti's on a spare blade if you have one, to build up knowledge as to how your coti performs with various slurry densities & with plain water.

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

Originally Posted by zib

Unfortunately, I've read this story many times. There's such an allure with Coticules, especially if your new. I don't know what it is, but it's a shame, and I feel sorry for all the guys who buy stones that are so so, or duds.

IMHO it is the misconception that one stone does it all. People look for the one hit wonder, in this case stone and read all the posts about how wonderful coticules are and jump right in. Guys being new to honing have no idea that coticules being natural stones can vary a lot in qualities and not all fit all. Unfortunately there are a lot of fanboys out there that would tell one how great coticule is, and it is but in it's own right not as an absolute stone.

@ OP:
Stick with a good tested synthetic stone set and learn to use it to perfection. After that if you feel the need add naturals to the set. Honing is acquired skill and majority of new honers will not have great success with naturals right off the bat. Some experience with synthetics and understanding how the bevels are formed and how the edge refining works will definitely make the transition much easier.

I do like coticules...some, but I like them because they're pretty and they have a satisfying feel. I had to get four to get one finisher that I really liked, and the finisher cost me about $300 (it is large, courtesy of disburden). The same rules apply that apply to any other stone. If the stone is not particularly abrasive, it's going to be slow and dissatisfying (perhaps this is the issue with the lagrise stones, I have one of those, and it feels rubbery). If the stone is soft, it won't be able to finish an edge well. If it's hard enough to hold its grit under a moderately light stroke, it will probably be able to impart a good finish like any other natural stone, but the water has to stay totally clear for that to be the case.

We know enough to know that the underlying garnet particles are large. The only way to get them to work finely is for them to stay affixed to the surface of the stone and wear some, just like any other natural stone.

I'd consider them a gentleman's stone (that's a term we use in woodworking where the appeal of something is more than just its effectiveness, and you pay for the appeal sometimes more than you pay for the effectiveness). Sometimes you see advice that vintage stones are better finishers. I don't know if that's the case or not. I do have a super dense vintage coti labeled "DEEP ROCK" on the back, and with a thick slurry it cuts as fast or almost as fast as a shapton 1k. That should tell someone something when they're thinking about using it as a finisher - it's going to take a lot of fiddling to get a result that will probably be subpar to the finish from a stone that only does the fine finish work well.

Most stones are cheap except for the very finest, and even at that, there are some very cheap fine finishers. There is no rule that if you pay a lot for a coticule, a japanese natural, or anything else ,that you'll definitely get a fine finisher. The natural stones are a gentleman's game either because of their price (eschers) or their variability (coticules, arkansas, etc).

Even with a translucent arkansas, which for me gives a keener edge on carbon steel than any other natural stone I have, if the stone has a freshly scuffed surface, it will still not make a finished edge.

Personally, if I had to have one reliable finisher, I'd rather have a single inexpensive jnat (like from aframestokyo that is *labeled* as a razor stone "iwasaki choice" or whatever) or a single 8x2 translucent arkansas stone that can be had cheaply. Both of those would make a finer edge than the average coticule.

Originally Posted by zib

Do you know what vein it is...?

It's a La Grise

My new one is also lagrise. I could get a shave off of it, but like probably 90 of the coticules around, it wasn't the kind of shave I'm used to after using japanese naturals, translucent arkansas stones or chromium oxide after a synthetic.

From what I gather using my coarser coticules, they can be brought up a notch with linen/felt, etc and a good strop. After an escher or japanese natural, that treatment isn't as critical, but the coticules usually benefit more from it.

It certainly would provide a good edge if you managed to get a balsa strop with chromium oxide. That may hurt some folks' hearts a little, but the results are what they are when you do that...sharp.

Originally Posted by Dripp

It's a La Grise

Yeah, I thought so...Unfortunately, they are very hard, Usually used only as a finisher. The one hone fit's all doesn't work so will with La Grise ime.

From what I hear, and I've spoke to Maurice (He's the owner at Ardennes Coticule) The only stones they're producing these days are "La Grise"
I personally don't like them, but maybe someone has some experience with La Grise, that's helpful.

If you want a good Coticule, keep your eyes open here on the classifieds. Look for La petite blance, Dressante, and some of the other veins mentioned. It your truly not happy with it see, if Jarod will take it back.

P.S. I like Coticule too, Every once in a while I'll get a blade that will benefit from one. I find brittle edges react well to Coticules. I use a Dressante to start, and a La Nouvelle to finish.

Good Luck to you.

Originally Posted by Dripp

Thanks guys. I bought it from TSS after talking with them about what they use for finishing their TI razors. About half of my rotation are TI 1/4 or 1/2 ground so I thought I'd be safe. .

TI's especially the newer harder steels would be the razors I would never use a Coticule on it would be one of the last of my finishers I would choose...

Try it on some of the softer Sheffild steels and see how it works for you..

Well, live and learn. So I have 4 TI Le Grelots (1/4 and 1/2 grounds), a Wacker 1/4 ground, a Henckel hollow, an older wade and butcher. Given these razors, any recommendations on a good finishing stone for use after my nortons?

I like a sharp blade, but not crazy sharp.

I prefer a close shave with a little irritation to the other way around.

I've bought a couple of the razors finished on Jnats and they were awesome, but that's a whole other ball of wax that I'm not sure I want to wade into.

And I don't want to spend weeks/months trying to figure it out. I love straight razor shaving, but don't have time to discover the finer points of a bunch of stones to determine which one is perfect.

And it doesn't have to be a coticule...

Chromium oxide on balsa for keener

Perhaps chromium oxide on linen, felt or soft leather for not as keen (but more keen and smooth than the norton), or you can hit an edge that's been on chromium oxide and balsa with linen or felt to soften it some.

No reason to spend a lot, and no reason to get into natural stones if you don't want to.