Thread: Knife as a tool

Originally Posted by xuz

I think the point could be further clarified.

1) Do you believe that stainless steel is inferior to high carbon steel?
Have you considered different tempering options that are available only to composite steels?
Have you considered the carbide size and distributions that separate composite steels from purer carbon steels?
Have you considered that for high production knives, composite steels allow for tighter/trouble-free manufacturing control?

2) But it seems to be that, you aren't particularly bothered by the quality of the stainless steel, but rather the fact that knife costs have gone up.
If that is that case, then I'm in agreement with you.
I also want to get good quality knives for 10 dollars.
Unfortunately, if you want to get a great folder with robust pivots and stop pins, good ergonomics in the shape and material of the scales, quality steel that has long edge retention combined with ease of sharpening, nice primary and secondary edge geometry for the intended applications, and with excellent warranty and post-purchase services, (for some examples, Spyderco's paramilitary 2 or a Chris Reeve Sebenza), you have to shell out 150 dollars to 400 dollars.

Sometimes I do wonder what the raw variable cost of these knives are (without considering the R&D cost).

you have very good points here. THe materials cost issue is very different than in the old days. The various steels and handle materials has gone up drastically from when we were kids. To make the average pocket knife you could easily have $10 - $15 in raw materials. Then there is labor, electricity, abrasives, etc and manufacturing overhead. A factory has a very difficult time producing a quality knife and sell it for $20 now days and make any profit. Well unless it is a tiny simple thing with a 1" blade and plastic scales.

Everything I wanted to say has been said. I don't agree with the OP. I prefer either steel so long as it is quality.

@Lynn, I may well be wrong, but I believe ATS-34 is not strictly a Stainless steel, I think it falls into the classification of a Semi-Stainless...I have been know to be a bit picky too . I have a homemade Bowie I made using ATS-34, and it is one helluva workhorse around a campsite.


Mick

There is a good reason that woodworking planes and woodcarving chisels and gouges are made of tool (carbon) steel. A sculpture would not put up with a stainless gouge.

Originally Posted by htmitten

There is a good reason that woodworking planes and woodcarving chisels and gouges are made of tool (carbon) steel. A sculpture would not put up with a stainless gouge.

Did my graduate work in sculpture and I wouldn't mind a set of chisels made out of CPM 154 or S30V. Properly sharpened they would work fine. To be perfectly honest there is a good reason sculptors do not have modern stainless chisels. The big one is that carbon steels are MUCH easier to forge and work on top of being a less expensive material to start with. Manufacturing cost and tradition have more to do with chisels being made of carbon steel than carbon steel being the only good steel.

My .02 worth.

I've got a few stainless folders that are some kick ass knives. I've got a Buck 110 made in '72 that I bought to replace one that had been stolen from me. I brought it back from 'Nam and still use it. I have a "SWISS TOOL" by Victorinox that has been through pure Hell. The steel isn't as hard as the Buck's but it is tough. I've also got a old Challenge Cutlery Corp knife with stainless blades that I figure helped hasten the demise of that company. It is a dog of knife. It is also the ONLY one of its style that I've ever seen without a broken back spring. It doesn't get used and rarely gets opened these days. It is a "safe queen". Stainless steel has come a long way since it was introduced. 80 years of technological advancement along with a world war helped bring it to where it is nowadays.

I used to make knives from L6. That is a wonderful old steel. It has a high nickel content and is a bit slower to rust than most. It gets real soft in the annealed state and will get hard enough to cut glass if you have a mind to make it. At that hardness it is nearly as brittle as glass though. I did all forging and my heat treat in a coal fire. I used a 2" by 72" belt grinder to grind my blades and made some tough "using" knives before I figured out I was working for about a dollar an hour.

Nowadays, I carry two carbon steel knives. In my pocket resides an old tear drop Challenge Cutlery Corp jack knife. That old knife has more snap than any new knife I've handled. Holds and edge and takes one too. On my hip, I have one of the "ridiculously expensive" newly made carbon steel knives by Great Eastern Cutlery. It has 1095 steel blades and will get wicked sharp and stay that way. IT's a 4 1/2 inch closed "trapper" pattern knife and it too has some EVIL snap. It does have half stops on the blades which is nice because if you get a finger in that punk when it closes, it will not be pretty. GEC has since toned down the spring tension I guess due to feared liability issues.

I swap that GEC and that Buck out every few months just to be different. That old Buck served me well in SE Asia and has done yeoman duty since. I've worn out three of the belt holsters but the old knife is still going strong.

The reason most of the new pocket knives are "ridiculously overpriced" is due to US labor and material costs. I buy from these companies because their product is good and they're "home grown". I would also hazard a guess that maybe thirty percent of GEC's production will ever get used as a knife. Most are bought by collectors and end up as safe queens.

On the other hand, most guys that buy a pocket knife aren't interested in a collectible knife. They want a knife they can use and not be out an arm and a leg if they break it or lose it. The Chinese market knives fit that bill very nicely.

I am also of the opinion that CASE is catering to collector market. I am NOT impressed by their knives today and as far as I'm concerned, Case quit making knives to use in 1970. Queen and their offshoots like Canal Street are hit and miss. Some rally rock whilst others really stink. I judge them one knife at a time.

The "stainless" steels mentioned above are great when the heat treat is done right. A 154CM/ATS34 knife is a wonderful thing. It will stain as will 440C. 440C is a bit harder to get to stain but it can be done.

One of these days I'll get me a big ol stainless razor and give it a whirl. I expect it will do everything as advertised and do it well.

Meantime, I'll keep on using the gal I brought to the dance.

Only three I have,the paul is a great blade,no clue what it is made of.The Buck was my long dead best friends Knife,maybe S.S,dunno,the case was my grandads,he died back in the 60s,is carbon I think,holds a wicked edge,is well worn tho.
all are great tools.

Originally Posted by Theseus

Being someone who has carried a Swiss Army knife every day for the last 22 years or so, I can say that there is nothing inferior about the stainless steel being used.

The longest I've owned anything is my Swiss Army knife. I got it when I was 9, I'm 41 now. It's as good now as the day I got it. I carry that and a folding Buck knife, the Swiss is used for things that I know will dull the edge a lot.

Just being stainless doesn't make steel bad no more then being carbon steel automatically makes it good. I've had good and bad experiences with knives of both types over the years. But I do think there are more crap knives made of stainless then of carbon but that's because stainless is cheap and mass produced and carbon is typically used by higher end manufacturers. Just my .02 cents.

I like knives.
I like knives, of all types.
I like the challenge in learning the maintenance and honing of all type of steels.
I like cheap stainless steel knives , for dirty work, that I would never consider using my High Carbon Queens on.
I like spreading peanut butter with my cheap stainless steel kitchen knife.
My son's first knife was a Swiss Army knife, (Stainless folder )

Original Ka-Bars are sold at the gunshow here for $55.00, pretty cheap these days for such a good knife.

If Cro-Magnon Man could have gotten his hands on a Wal Mart, China made, stainless hunting knife; I think he would have kept it.

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Only three I have,the paul is a great blade,no clue what it is made of.The Buck was my long dead best friends Knife,maybe S.S,dunno,the case was my grandads,he died back in the 60s,is carbon I think,holds a wicked edge,is well worn tho.
all are great tools.

That Case trapper was made between 1940 and 1964 IF there is no USA under that XX. If it has USA under the XX and no dots under the USA, it was made between 1965 and 1969. Should have 5254 on the back of the blade. It is a stag handled knife and worth quite bit on the market. I know it's worth more to you since it was your grand dad's, but it is a VERY good and very desirable knife. I've been looking for one of those for a while that I could afford. Have yet to find one. Hang on to it and treat it good. THAT is a KEEPER of the highest order.

Looks like it has a recurve. Is that by design?