Thread: Who bakes bread?

Try sifting the flour before you measure it. FYI, Flour labeled cake flour is not different than regular flour. Basically a finer grind and would be, possibly, yield a softer loaf.

Originally Posted by Razorfeld

Try sifting the flour before you measure it. FYI, Flour labeled cake flour is not different than regular flour. Basically a finer grind and would be, possibly, yield a softer loaf.

True cake and pastry flour should have a different blend. All purpose flour combines different types while cake should contain more spring wheat while bread flour should contain more hard winter wheat. The grind is different too.

Notice I say should. it will depend on the brand.

Thanks Nelson. I wasn't too sure about that and I knew you would be along to clarify that. Have you made bread with the cake flour? I am curious.

If I'm not mistaken, cake flour is low in gluten thus making for a light tender product.

When flour is kneaded or worked the gluten is 'developed' and this changes the texture.

The reason things like pie crust, biscuits, muffins etc are only worked (mixed) just enough to mix with the liquids is to keep them tender. Over mixing results in a tough product.

I've used cake flour to make biscuits and they do come out very tender and flakey.

While it's not bread, here's a little clip of how gluten can be developed to make noodles.

I do believe that only wheat contains gluten.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoKXBGHyecI

Originally Posted by Kees

The missus got me a bread machine for my birthday. I get great loaves using bread baking mixes from the supermarket but if I start from scratch, using wholemeal, water, yeast and salt I get very dense loaves.
Can anyone tell me what's the baker's secret is?

If your loaves are dense, I suspect that you have a problem with your yeast. Either there isn't enough, you're not giving it enough time to rise, or the yeast is dead. The density is from there not being enough rise in your loaf. There is a relationship between time and the amount of yeast. Less yeast equals more time. More yeast equals less time. Dead yeast equals a dense loaf.

Having the liquid Too Hot will also kill the yeast. With that said I think that OCD's observations are spot on.

One thing to keep in mind regarding bread machines: they are an enclosed vessel. From what I've read, you can't simply take a recipe for homemade bread baked in the oven, and make it in a bread machine. There are adjustments that need to be made. I believe there are other factors that necessitate tweaking the recipe to work in one, but being enclosed is what jumps out at me.

A few additional notes about yeast: the ambient climate of where it rises factors into the rise.

Where I work, the initial "sponge" dough sits for three to five hours in the mixing room. Think if it as letting the initial rise happen on your countertop. The final rise (after getting extruded, shaped, and put in pans) is roughly an hour long, at temps of between 95 & 110 degrees Fahrenheit... in a huge box that maintains the humidity at somewhere just under "rainfall". We call the initial dough "sponge" because it is affected quite a bit by the climate of the season/day. In the hot, humid summer, the doughs (even after more ingredients are added, and it is separated & put into pans) are softer, more wet, and often more sticky than when we run in the arid & cooler winter.

I expect that y'all's kitchens are more tightly climate controlled. So it will be easier for you to nail down exacting adjustments for your recipes. A slight bit more/less of water, flour, yeast, and (to a lesser degree) sugars are the key adjustments that need to be tweaked to affect texture & density.

Oh, and just to reaffirm: they are correct about the relationship between bread rise, and time vs. temp. Colder proof circumstances = more time required. And visa versa.

I hope this helps! I'm available for further questions, if necessary .

Thanks for your help. I found out what the problem is. The machine has a 1st and 2nd rise. 2nd rise about an hour but I discovered that halfway the machine will knead the dough for a minute or so. Apparently that works well for bread mixes but not for pure wholemeal flour. The dough will collapse and the half hour it gets for what I would call the 3rd rise is simply not enough for pure wholemeal flour. The booklet that comes with the machine does not mention this halfway kneading.

This is the mill I get my wholemeal spelt flour from:



200 year old restaured windmill "de Bente"

Ah, that would also make a difference. I'm not sure the exact "grade" of flour we use (all purpose/cake/whole). But due to the long initial rise, the sponge doughs usually need to be knocked down at least once before they get the second mix (right before getting turned into loaves). This is more of a concern with white breads.

You might try increasing the amount of yeast used, ever so slightly. For us, in white vs. wheat recipes: the more wheat flour in a recipe, the more water in it. Since you are using whole flour, this might help in your situation.

Also, are there different settings for your bread machine? Increasing the final rise duration would help. Or if it only allows for broad changes, see if it has a setting for wheat/whole wheat/whole grain recipes? just spit-balling again.

It is a very basic bread maker. It has 12 programs. E.g. one for wholemeal and one for white bread, Within those programs you can only set the weight. So what I do now is switching off the machine just before the kneading between 2nd and 3rd rise and then wait until the dough has risen enough. Then I will start the baking only program. Gives better results.