Thread: Straights for Heavy Beards?

If you take into account most razor production would have been aimed at barbers, being the tools of their trade, wedges would have been prevalent up until the '60s if they were that good, but they were all but obsolete. Full hollows were the most common grind.
I have lost count of the threads I have read from members having problems with how many layers of tape they should use on their wedge to get it shave ready. Having said that, I do enjoy a shave with a wedge every now and again, the older the better.
Let's face the facts, a true "shave ready" straight, be it a wedge or a singer will mow down whatever you present it with much better than any cart will, or DE for that matter.

"For Heavy Beards" is a marketing ploy, just like "For Barber's Use"

No offence but I have coarse facial hair and I can tell you as a matter of fact that a heavier blade does add a feel of effortlessness to a shave compared to a lighter blade.
I think the weight does make a difference to the feel of the shave but not the end result............................................ ...

In the end, it depends on edge keenness, or the width of the edge at the apex. Hair/stubble consists of layers, of which the outermost is a hard cuticle layer. If the stubble is dry, a razor will have issue severing the hair because of this hard layer, and is likely to damage the edge in the form of chipping. This cuticle layer is shingle-like in its construction i.e. not solid but consisting of smaller overlapping segments.

When we prep our stubble for shaving by using water and/or product we look to get moisture into the inner layers of the stubble, which then expands and pushes the cuticle follicles ("shingles") outwards, giving the blade a chance to slip between them and sever the hair. If the apex of the edge is narrow enough, the blade will cut the hair. This is in no way subjective, and I doubt that hair thickness has much to do with it. In how far the cuticle layer thickness or size of its follicles vary between hair of different thickness I do not know, but as the point of shaving is to get between those follicles, I doubt this has a large impact.

Of course there is the difference in edge flexibility between hollow and (closer to) wedge ground blades, as well as the added weight in heavier razors. Maybe the added weight/momentum of heavy blades makes it easier for the apex of the edge to force its way in between the follicles, but again I doubt it makes cutting stubble significantly easier compared to more hollow grinds, which in turn have more flexibility which would enable them to follow hair and skin contours better than heavier grinds.

On a personal note: After a good four years of shaving, I must say that I get closer and more comfortable shaves from full hollow razors. I can get as smooth ("stubbleless") with near wedges, but it will take a bit more effort (a bit of added pressure, more buffing, etc.), which sometimes means sacrificing comfort. I still use them every now and then as I do not aim for absolute annihilation of all stubble ("BBS") and I get very nice shaves with them, but after a bit of practice with full hollows I simply find them easier to manipulate to follow the contours of my face, resulting in an optimal shave (in terms of closeness and lack of irritation).

Maybe someone else gets their angle of approach spot on for every patch of stubble on their face every time they use a (near-)wedge. I do not. So in that way, yes, shaving with differently ground razors is subjective. But in the end, every razor that has a sufficiently narrow apex will cut well-prepared stubble equally easily.

I certainly haven't read them all, but I've looked through two or three from after 1920s and I am pretty confident if there is the relation that you suppose it would've made its way in them. After all stuff that is false like x-pattern honing being necessary for creating the correct 'razor teeth' has made its way there. They are copyrighted material so in the library section there is only a partial sample of one or two, but I'm sure you can find such books through your local public library.
The point is that you are setting unreasonably high burden for the claim - if the dependence really existed it would be obvious in any setup where one skilled person shaves thousands of different people most of them multiple times. The fact that there is no high profile for such an important dependence means that one is not easily observed.

True, I might be asking for too much. I have read a few shaving manuals, but I have not made an in-depth study. I am not sure the public library system in North Carolina will yield much. Though I do have a friend who is librarian. Maybe I can ask to see if she can dig up some info. As well, observational studies have their merits, but they also have weaknesses.

DublDuck is among the top 5 brands in terms of numbers. Right now there are 135 dubl duck razors on ebay.com, so that's on the order of 5000 of them per year. If you want to quantify it you can run the statistics from the past auctions and get an estimate for the relative production numbers.
I thought it is clear from my post that 'oddball customer in the low price market' is something I derived from the structuring of their product line and the relative production ratios, which come from my personal observation of those razors that have survived until today. (Not formally quantified but I've been on ebay and on the forums for a bunch of years to observe thousands of them and if your own perception is different it is trivial to determine the correct one.)

OK, so you are making some inference based on observation. Thank you for letting me know how you arrived at your conclusion.

This is incorrect - properly made and properly honed razors are equally easy to hone regardless of the grind. In fact the wedges are much easier and cheaper to make. You would note plenty of aspiring razor makers who produce wedgy razors and almost none who can even execute full hollow grind let alone would do it for the price of a quarter hollow.
Now, if you do abuse the razor then yes you can go much further with a hollow ground, and perhaps that's the underlying reason why full hollows took over looking at the surviving razors, but that's a rather different thing.

Exactly, why would they start making full hollows which are more difficult to make? No more difficult to hone, sure with electric tape.

Sure, commoditization plays a role, but the diversity is there so it does not explain it. Filarmonica seems to have put out 5/8 6/8 and 7/8 razors in similar quantities, while DublDuck and most other american brands typically have primarily 5/8, quite a bit less 6/8 and very rarely 7/8 razor. Among the French production there seems to be more equal distribution between 5/8 and 6/8, Germany is similar to US and England seems to have gotten out of the game in the early 1900s. Again, my observations, and I can argue them based on evidence not on authority, so I hope you do not expect a citation.

If it is personal observation, I do not mind. I know you do have a wealth of knowledge about shaving. I am not attempting to be inflammatory in my comments either.

You do cite different sizes as evidence of diversification, but not sure razor width would be a great example. It seems most razors would come in two sizes. That is really not diverse. Given modern production examples, not much has changed either. Most razors will be around 5/8 or 6/8. Probably because those are the sizes most people will like to use. Of course, you have the occasional 7/8, but for the most part we have two choices. Though I did find it funny when I ordered a 6/8 TI razor once and it was coming in at almost 8/8.

Don't take this the wrong way guys but I think only people with dense thick facial hair can understand the difference between weights of blades.
At the end of the day its just a feel thing.
Its not a massive difference its just about the feel of the shave.

Originally Posted by BobH

Never could understand what difference the grind makes, sharp is sharp.

Bob

Plus 1 sharp is sharp

Gugi should change his name to TROLL. Seriously, you make off the wall statements in a very broad range of threads, then insult people when they show the slightest bit of interest in calling you out. This forum, from my point of view, is about sharing knowledge, experience, and new ideas to further the the education of our craft.

Great thread.
Opinions and passionate beliefs abound where it comes to sharp shiny things against our throats. I too have 100% conviction in my skin and hairs feedback when it comes to what feels smooth and what doesn't, to me.
Without reading the tomes of barber-esq instructional material and only having two years into this hobby to draw my own conclusions where it pertains to grind I too tend to prefer the hollow grinds vs the Wedges for closeness, comfort, and BBS from a two pass perspective.
I have sent my wedges out to the professionals to be honed to eliminate my own possible shortcomings in honing and still find my shaves better off the hollower grinds such as Boker, Filly, and Shumate.
I love the look, weight, and history of my Wedges, and am restoring a WB FBU currently that may, or may not change my entire paradigm. I am open to it, but doubt that will happen.
And regarding hair coarseness, my grandfather is a wookie so I can relate to the brillo pad analogies some share.
I can and have mowed down a weeks growth easier with a Shumate than with a Wade Wedge. Filmed and posted it on here in fact. Again, personal opinions all differ. The burnt toast scrapey sound, the slight flexing on the curves, and the tightness and thinness of edge all come together in the sportscar type feel and feedback I like.
Some like F150's, some like Porsche's. All get you from point A to B, some just get you there quicker, road conditions aside..
Great group of ideas, arguments, and positions though.
Thanks for the great read.

I think it's the edge. I have a very coarse beard and get good shaves from my Wade wedges, Saito extra hollow, and my 1/4 wedge Kraken. Just my opinion though

Originally Posted by Mephisto

True, I might be asking for too much. I have read a few shaving manuals, but I have not made an in-depth study. I am not sure the public library system in North Carolina will yield much.

That's why I suggested public library - through the interlibrary sharing system you can get almost any book that exists in US.

Originally Posted by Mephisto

You do cite different sizes as evidence of diversification, but not sure razor width would be a great example. It seems most razors would come in two sizes. That is really not diverse.

Just a quick search of ebay e.g. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...ement&_sacat=0 reveals about half a dozen ads targeted at barbers from the 50s and 60s (few scissors and two razors in each). Here are few examples of the razors in each:

1956



1957


1964


There are number of ways one can think of what they show, but I notice that first there are no claims about suitability of a razor for particular task - the descriptions describe the razor nothing else. Then, the German imports are more expensive than the local manufacture, the hollow grinds were more expensive than the wedge and there is no price difference in sizes. Full hollow was offered in 5 sizes from 9/16 up to 7/8, while the wedge only in 3 sizes 4/8, 9/16, and 5/8.
Given the marketing, pricing, and the availability from the manufacturer, the much smaller numbers of wedges and large sizes surviving relative to the smaller full hollows tells me that the people, including barbers simply preferred the standard size and grind.