Thread: What are the main difference between Vintage and modern steels?

Originally Posted by RezDog

My thought on why vintage razors commonly take more effort to hone. Bevel set. Typically with vintage razors there is no original bevel remaining and it must be created. The exception to this will be NOS razors which still sport their factory bevel. Restoration honing is much more extensive and requires a lot more effort than a touch or refresh.I have done a fair bit of all of the above and I think this answers what I think you are asking.

Originally Posted by Gasman

My personal opinion is the feel while honing of different grinds comes from different makers. Thinking its in the hardening or if a portion of the blade has been removed and made smaller then the steel is not as hard as its from closer to the inside of the blade at that point.

A hollow ground or near wedge with the same amount of bevel should hone the same. But if one is warped it can act differently.

I used to feel wedge was harder to hone. But after years i feel its from more of the shape, grind and condition that makes it more work to hone.
Grinds nowadays are done better than i. The old days. That has to have something to do with it.

I think that's... Mostly that.

Another point is how engineering has progressed during the 20th century.
Nowadays, industrial steel has reached such a level of precision that it's borderline ridiculous

Honing a modern c135 razor is, after the third, a no brainer : they hone the absolutely same.
No need to feel, no need to adjust, no need for elaborate tricks (swipes, rolling X for the smiles, etc). You have a working protocol ? Just go that way, it will absolutely always work.

Now vintage steel... Are we talking pre-WWII ? Post war ? Because believe me, some have been excessively creative post war since a lot of the good steel was buried in the ground, stuck in the walls, or just rotting outside. Solingen is kind of (big kind of) the exception.
And yet... While there might be a quality standard, they did not have the tools we have nowadays, such as spectrometers, diffractometers, electronic microscopes etc. So well...Quality standards at that time were not the ones we have nowadays, so you have much more variation the older you go.

My advice, if any is needed is as follow:
In the lockpicking world, they have a saying : "Never pick the same lock twice".
Your hand might need to be tried at a wider variety of steels, shapes, provenances, temperings, etc.
After some time, you might feel that vintage and modern Solingen are not that different

Originally Posted by Aggelos

I think that's... Mostly that.

Another point is how engineering has progressed during the 20th century.
Nowadays, industrial steel has reached such a level of precision that it's borderline ridiculous

Honing a modern c135 razor is, after the third, a no brainer : they hone the absolutely same.
No need to feel, no need to adjust, no need for elaborate tricks (swipes, rolling X for the smiles, etc). You have a working protocol ? Just go that way, it will absolutely always work.

Now vintage steel... Are we talking pre-WWII ? Post war ? Because believe me, some have been excessively creative post war since a lot of the good steel was buried in the ground, stuck in the walls, or just rotting outside. Solingen is kind of (big kind of) the exception.
And yet... While there might be a quality standard, they did not have the tools we have nowadays, such as spectrometers, diffractometers, electronic microscopes etc. So well...Quality standards at that time were not the ones we have nowadays, so you have much more variation the older you go.

My advice, if any is needed is as follow:
In the lockpicking world, they have a saying : "Never pick the same lock twice".
Your hand might need to be tried at a wider variety of steels, shapes, provenances, temperings, etc.
After some time, you might feel that vintage and modern Solingen are not that different

You definitely have a point here. I've honed 2 TI C135 the second time being very easy. I believe the oldness of vintage blades and the edge condition add to the feeling that sometimes they're somewhat tricky to get shave-ready, but, after all, not very different from today's Solingen steel. I'll mention that in my project. Thanks a lot

Originally Posted by RezDog

I think that in the hay day in Solingen that there were actually very few doing their own heat temper and heat treat and a lot of the cottage industries were grinding blades and making or fitting scales. It seems that there were only a few drop forges making the blanks.

I would like evidence for that but I understand it's very hard to obtain. But yeah, sounds logical. The major difference I've found is in the grind but I'd like to know if there were actually variations in steel quality between manufacturers.

Thank you!

Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

I don't know the answer to this but I wonder how much has to do with the amount of recycled steel used now compared to a century ago. I don't even know but I imagine it is vastly more today.

Do they really use recycled steel nowadays? Really??!!!

If you have any evidence for that, being it a PDF or video, or anything, I'd like to see it please!!

Thanks!!

Originally Posted by CoffeeAddict24

Do they really use recycled steel nowadays? Really??!!!

If you have any evidence for that, being it a PDF or video, or anything, I'd like to see it please!!

Thanks!!

That's the whole point of our ecology, they're trying / have to recycle almost everything.
That's been happening for centuries.

Originally Posted by TristanLudloz1928273

That's the whole point of our ecology, they're trying / have to recycle almost everything.
That's been happening for centuries.

Makes sense. I use a modern Wacker for my everyday shaves. Before it, I was using a modern day TI. I don't have problem with that. I have the feeling that some purists wouldn't like to get a razor made from recycled steel that's what I found surprising at the beginning but you know, makes sense. Shouldn't have surprised me at all.

Anyway, I have to mention this in my video. But I think it might discourage some people from getting brand-new razors which would be a shame. At least IMO. I have owned 3 modern-day Bokers all of them awesome. Not as flexible as the vintage stuff. But awesome shavers nonetheless.

Thanks

I don’t know this, but I suspect it is the case that any vintage razor stamped “crucible steel” was made from steel made directly from raw ore with possibly some additions to create an alloy that was more preferable for razors. That is how wootz was made.

I also suspect other steels used for vintage razors were smelted together from combinations of ore and whatever scrap steel was lying around in the same way that cast iron was and is now made.

I’d love to be shown how wrong this assertion is.

It's a no brainer that modern steels are superior to old ones (just ask the survivors of the titanic sinking, if there were any left). The real issue is not the thing but how it's used.

Craftsmanship back in the day was far superior than what we have now. The alloys we now have are way better and the production is way better with fewer impurities (I'm not talking custom guys here).

Yes if you buy a custom razor you get the best of everything and I'd compare that to the best of the old stuff IF you can get a pristine razor to compare.

So, if you mean a typical new factory razor to an old one the answer is yes and no if you know what I mean.

Originally Posted by CoffeeAddict24

Do they really use recycled steel nowadays? Really??!!!

If you have any evidence for that, being it a PDF or video, or anything, I'd like to see it please!!

Thanks!!

I don't have any data. I also don't know that the razor companies use recycled steel intentionally or not but in this day in time they may not have any choice. Especially since the 1980s and the push to "reduce, reuse, recycle," I imagine that most manufactured steel has some recycled amount.

Crucible steel, Silver steel, Magnetic Steel. Back in the day many if not most were marketing scams.

One of the troubles with recycled metals from what I understand in that you can throw a bunch in and remelt it but you don't know for sure what the resulting alloy is going to be until you test it. Then it is a lot easier to add a little more magnesium or vadnium than take it out.

From what I understand then again this makes recycled metal to be on average to be of lesser grades.


Tim