Thread: Scanning electron microscopy and straights.

Originally Posted by rosscollins3

Would it be okay for an individual to send their razor after stropping to be looked at in the SEM? or is that time lapse too long... I think it may be too long as I usually wait until the lather is on my face to stop my razor.

Yes, I think that most would agree with you. It would be necessary for you to strop the thing just before the imaging routine started…

I saw the other thread concerning the electron microscope and, as requested, I'm posting my comment here because it may depart on the subject a little.

Although all of these experiments are trully fascinating, I can't but wonder what our ancestors, those who used straight razors on a daily basis when no other metho was available, would say about this... Sure, all this is scientific and, again, very interesting. But it is just a razor; this is just shaving...
These experiments may well expand our understanding of what sharp means. They may help to understand what is needed to refine an edge even further without compromising the integrity of the edge. But this may also get us a bit out of focus and obsessed... We must, at all times, be pragmatic. These things just need to be sharp enough to shave our faces in a painless and effortless way. That is, in my view, all that matters.

I beg of you not to take any offense at my comment but that was my first thought. Now, please, carry on with the experimentation - I will be quite attentive to it's developments.

Originally Posted by fpessanha

I can't but wonder what our ancestors, those who used straight razors on a daily basis when no other metho was available, would say about this...

They would say, "oh wow, that's really cool! Now let's look at a bug or something!"

That's what my ancestors would say

Originally Posted by fpessanha

I saw the other thread concerning the electron microscope and, as requested, I'm posting my comment here because it may depart on the subject a little.

Although all of these experiments are trully fascinating, I can't but wonder what our ancestors, those who used straight razors on a daily basis when no other metho was available, would say about this... Sure, all this is scientific and, again, very interesting. But it is just a razor; this is just shaving...
These experiments may well expand our understanding of what sharp means. They may help to understand what is needed to refine an edge even further without compromising the integrity of the edge. But this may also get us a bit out of focus and obsessed... We must, at all times, be pragmatic. These things just need to be sharp enough to shave our faces in a painless and effortless way. That is, in my view, all that matters.

I beg of you not to take any offense at my comment but that was my first thought. Now, please, carry on with the experimentation - I will be quite attentive to it's developments.

Agreed, While this is very cool. I don't think it has any real bearing on "Shave ready" as the one and only true test, is, and will always be, to shave with it. A Loupe, 10x, 20x and 30x is really all you need. I saw someone post differences in steel from a W&B and a Duck I think, which was intersting. I think if guys just getting into this hobby go out and buy even a USB microscope, they could wind up doing more harm than good when it come to honing...No offense intended to the USB users. Knock yourselves out....

I agree with you guys. However, already knowing what shave ready means and being able to achieve it pretty consistently; I still want to know what the **** stropping does and why it works so well! I must know!!!!!!!

I could care less about the edge.

I haven't looked at SEM stills since doing some samples in college. We used them to look at stem cells and other cellular structures of injured fish tales. The samples took a lot of time to prepare, but the resolution was perfect. Thanks for sharing these photos because this gives a true view of honing techniques. I hope you will continue to experiment and hopefully someone will donate specimens sharpened with different hones etc. This way you can tell us the secret combination to honing a razor to near perfection!

Originally Posted by joke1176

You could make a few bucks on that SEM, if you do analysis of different natural hones and their effect on equivalent razor steel.

I will send you some slurry from an Escher, a Japanese, a few Thuringians, and a few coticules for particulate comparison... free of charge, just to get you started!

seriously though: You could really shed some light on the coticules vs thuringians vs Japanese et al debates.

You would be FAMOUS!

I have slurry from several hones in the freezer to look at 1000X visible light magnification, but haven't gotten around to taking the pictures yet. SEM would certainly produce better images but I'll still see if I can make time to do this some time soon.

Originally Posted by fpessanha

I saw the other thread concerning the electron microscope and, as requested, I'm posting my comment here because it may depart on the subject a little.

Although all of these experiments are trully fascinating, I can't but wonder what our ancestors, those who used straight razors on a daily basis when no other metho was available, would say about this... Sure, all this is scientific and, again, very interesting. But it is just a razor; this is just shaving...
These experiments may well expand our understanding of what sharp means. They may help to understand what is needed to refine an edge even further without compromising the integrity of the edge. But this may also get us a bit out of focus and obsessed... We must, at all times, be pragmatic. These things just need to be sharp enough to shave our faces in a painless and effortless way. That is, in my view, all that matters.

I beg of you not to take any offense at my comment but that was my first thought. Now, please, carry on with the experimentation - I will be quite attentive to it's developments.

Why anyone would take offence at of your thoughts on these matters, my friend?
But I do not entirely agree.

Man has always possessed an inquiring mind, wondering about the why and the how about what he witnessed empirically. Also in previous centuries, scientific attempts were made to understand the concepts of shaving and sharpening. In 1770 Jean-Jacques Perret introduced the term "pogonotomy" (the art of shaving oneself) and explored, at that time, unknown territory. We all have read the "Popular Mechanics" article with the microscope pictures of razor's edges, published some 100 years ago.
The straight razor, as we know it, is the result of a long technological development. The knowledge about steel alloys and heat treatment was not written in the 10 Commandments. It is the results of ages of "scientific" approach, from melted iron in a cave to CMP-S30V (a modern stainless steel alloy).

I am not one that can be accused of having a lack of nostalgia. But I am pretty certain that a big majoriy of our ancestors where not all that happy with the performance of their straight razors. Many couldn't do it. They had to depend on a barber to get a shave. Those that did shave at home, as soon as they got the chance of replacing their straight razors with a factory sharpened disposable blade (Gillette), it didn't take them very long to make up their mind about it. I imagine that is not because they were so happy about the use of their straight razors.

If believe the success of the current straight razor revival is for an important part due to a number of very modern and scientific developments. This internet forum is one of them. We have today far better access to excellent razor performance, or the info how to get it, than our ancestors could ever dream of. If it wasn't for that, many guys that struggle in the beginning, and that get served in the newbie section of SRP, would put away the straight after a few weeks of frustration.
I think those whol are actively contrubuting to this forum, must realize that they actually are the spearhead of today's straight razor users. If we don't answer our questions, no one will. Of course, just like some people like to speak Latin today, which is a dead and inert language, there's nothing wrong with using a straight razor out of historical fondness with the concept of it.
But I personally like the notion that straight razors are alive and vibrant, and that people are still in search...

Kind regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by mparker762

AHA! you're just the guy we need!

In case you haven't seen it yet, a Prof of Metallurgy at U of Iowa did a study with an EM a few years ago:

Experiments on Knife Sharpening

..

fantastic information
thanx

Scanning Electron Microscopes (SEM) scan a sample with a focused electron beam and deliver images with information about the samples' topography and composition. CSEMs (conventional SEMs with a thermic electron source.

Scanning electron microscopy (SEM) is a method for high-resolution imaging of surfaces. An electron microscope in which a beam of focused electrons moves across the object with the secondary electrons. Instead of relying on a single detector, this device combines 3 different Micro-analytical detectors: SE, BSE and EDS.