Thread: Modified Gold Dollar

Originally Posted by mrjin

Wow, that's really really long writing. For those I meant to practicing honing only, have never thought of the edge retention etc at all. They served that purpose really well, except that none of them had a heel or stabilizer to fix. If you look at the spines and bevels, you will find out how much steel I removed in order to get an acceptable bevel. But after bevels set, it took just minutes to get them shave ready. I'm not sure if it was my honing skills got better or something else, I got all of them popping the finest hairs on my hands just of Naniwa 800, which I could only get at 4K or above.

With those I noticed something I had not seen before that almost mirror finish bevels off my Naniwa 4K were scratched on Shapton Pro 8K and 12K. Not sure if it was that I pressed harder than usual. Also noticed that the Kure Nai rusted on the edge already, despite I dried it with a tissue. Sydney has been crazily humid in the last a couple of days.

I found we probably shouldn't buy razors online as so far it looks like a hit or miss game, despite I paid decent prices for them. So far, 4 new ones, one Dovo with badly warped edge, others are okay. One New-Old-Stock Le Jaguar with warped edge just slightly better than the Dovo. It's a pity that I could not really find a any physical dealing straight razor in Sydney. I guess I can now spot ground issues with my bear eyes but unfortunately, there was no way for me to inspecting them before placing the orders.

As I mentioned, don't expect an entry level Dovo to hone right up. They are usually pretty wonky, lots of twist. Someone experienced with them can turn them into good shavers, but the average neophyte honer will give up in digust. I have never ran across a midrange Dovo that presented any extraordinary difficulties in honing, though. I have several Bismarcks and they honed right up, without exception, with no medieval measures to beat it into submission.

My first razor was a Dovo Best. This was long before Al Gore invented the internet, as he so famously blurted. I had no mentor and there were no books. I "shaved" with that razor for years, constantly trying to get it sharper, and I always looked like I had been sorting wildcats all morning. I finally got it shaving almost tolerably and then I ran across a vintage Boker I believe it was, in a junk shop. I had also just bought a stone in a hardware store in Matamoros, and it was a HUGE slab of fine grained quartz type rock, faintly translucent, very flat and highly burnished. I was starting to learn to keep the shoulder off the stone, by then. That stone and that razor and my newly purchased "real" strop, were the winning combination. Next I think was the Colonel Conk. A rebranded Dovo Best, AFAIK. Another dog. I didn't have the skill set to grind those razors straight. One more Best a few years later and I decided that 3 for 3 lemons was enough. I think I tossed all three though I might have given them away, don't remember. Now, I can "fix" such razors but as a beginner, no way, Jose.

I later, after internet happened, bought a vintage Bismarck online. The real Bismarck, made before Dovo bought the brand. Sweet. Nicest razor ever. Feels good in the hand, hones up beautifully, a dream to shave with. Bought another Bismarck and it turned out to be a DOVO Bismarck! I was, to keep the language gentlemanly, upset. But hey, it turned out to be a fine razor and all I had to do was give it about 30 swats on my finisher and a stropping and it easily popped hairs 1/4" above the skin. The shave was arguably identical from what I got from the Bismarck Bismarck. Now I have several of each, including some Dovos of different model name made on the same blank. Then I realized that the junk Dovos were probably the rejects that the company decided to sell instead of trash, probably ground by apprentice grinders or that didn't make it through the quench without warping. The steel is the same, obviously.

Then a few years later after I had accumulated quite a few razors, about half a shrimp basket full, actually, I ran across Gold Dollars. Out of stubbornness and with my painfully acquired knowledge from years of tangling with ebay basket cases, and with a progression of Naniwa stones and lapping film which was the new kid on the block for honing, it didn't take too long to start getting them shaving. On another forum there were several guys using them as cannon fodder in their modification attempts, and there was an annual competition. I jumped in with both feet. We all dremelled our way through whole bouquets of Gold Dollars when Chinese resellers started selling them at barely above wholesale, with China government subsidized free shipping to the US. Lots of shattered blades and cutting wheels, yeah. Lots of burnt up blades with the Blue Stain of Death on them from overheating. Lots of works of art, too. Eventually I decided I could make a little coin buying straight from the factory and honing them up and selling them, but with no major modifications. I had sold a couple of modded ones for crazy money, but I was selling the many many hours of work much too cheaply, and I wanted to keep my per unit labor investment down to a reasonable level. It was an active market and a couple of key players had moved on and were no longer selling, so it was kind of an opportunity. The only problem is I really didn't want to bother with more than a couple per day and the orders were coming in pretty heavy even when I upped the price over and over. Life got in the way and it was REALLY hard dealing with the lying factory rep and so I quit, but not before I put nice sharp GDs into the hands of a lot of guys and not a few of them probably were hooked and got into straight shaving and bought nicer razors. At one point I had a handle on some Dovos at a very good price but to sell them at a good price I would have a pretty miserable markup for all my hassle, and just one return could really mess me up as the razor would then no longer be new. These were Bismarck pattern razors, most wihtout all the gold bling. I could just see myself fighting to make $20 clear profit on each razor and then a return putting me back $140 or so, minus what I could get for it as a used razor. The problem with online sales is you are selling to a lot of noobs who don't know how to shave, and blame the razor even when it is a smooth shaving treetopper in an experienced shaver's hand. I had only ever got ONE return with the GD's but I figured there would be more buyer remorse at the higher price tier.

You should practice your honing on a razor that you will actually want to shave with. Otherwise you won't really learn much. A few ebay beaters with respected brand names and no cracks or deep pitting near the edge would be your best bet. Expendable, but with potential. Not saying a GD has no potential as a decent shaver because obviously it does, but try some vintage blades. I have picked up razors for under $10 that honed and shaved just fine. Lots of winners for under $20. Just be patient, use a sniper, and keep your bid limit reasonable. If you win more than 10% of your ebay auctions you are probably bidding too high. There will always be another one and you don't "lose" if somebody outbids you. Set your sniper and pay it no mind until a "pay now" ebay nag arrives in your email. And don't bid on a dozen at a time because sometimes you get what you ask for.

Originally Posted by CrescentCityRazors

As I mentioned, don't expect an entry level Dovo to hone right up.

Thanks for the advice. I learnt that myself, lol. I had been using cartridge razors for over a decade. It was alright until it wasn't. All of a sudden I found I could only get one or two comfortable shaves out a cartridge. So I inspected the used cartridges carefully, and realized the blades were rustic and most importantly rolled. That was the last straw. I turned my eyes to straight razors which I knew nothing about then. Literally I just searched online and picked up a Dovo Astrale. The Dovo Astrale arrived shave ready, I could not understand how but it was. I was initially very happy with it so I picked another two of Dovo Specials. Just after around 2 months, I had to hone it, then I realized the spine was off quite a bit, the edge was warped pretty badly but the return windows was closed. So I inspected the two Dovo Specials, both had some minor spine issue and also some micro chips near the toes. I guess I was lucky on those two. I did not realized started with hell mode then, just kept trying to solve various issues encountered along the line. Finally I got the Astrale keener than arrived again, after putting dozens of hours into it, purchasing 3 sets of Shaptons, Naniwas, Kings etc and some other natural stones.

I cannot agree more with your assertions regarding Dovo, they simply ships those should be binned. There was a video on how Dovo honing razors, it perfectly explained why there were so many warped edges. I probably would not touch Dovos from now on.

Originally Posted by CrescentCityRazors

You should practice your honing on a razor that you will actually want to shave with.

This is absolutely true and that's exactly how I improved my honing skills. The problem with this approach is that I can only shave once a couple of days and thus it will take a long time to improve, especially when you are already good enough to get super comfortable shaves straight off the stones. And if you indeed got a decent razor, it doesn't take much to get it shave ready as you mentioned. I snatched up a Boker Schildpatt 2.0 recently, all it took were 30 strokes on Shapton 12K and 5 strokes on Shapton 30K, there is little you can learn from it.

Originally Posted by CrescentCityRazors

but try some vintage blades

Yep, I'm doing that too. So far I picked up ~20 of them, most of them were actually way better ground than new Dovos, so far I only encountered one warped edge. What annoys me is that some sellers would do stupid things with them such as nickel plating without thoroughly removing the rusts. Such BS significantly increased the effort needed. I find this is way too time consuming for me, so I'm moving away from this to NOS(New-Old-Stock) razors. But it seems to be as bad as buying brand new ones. So the Le Jaguar came with no spine issues but the edge was warped too, just a little bit better than the Dovo Astrale. I managed to get the Le Jaguar shave ready and it shaves really nice but just like the Dove Astrale, I'll put it away as too much effort required to hone it. There are 2 NOSes and one vintage still on their way, I'm wondering how would they look like.

Regarding those eBay auctions, I found myself hardly won. As you pointed out, it's probably a good thing. I would not want to pay too much for something will be honed up and then sitting in my boxes. I did quite a few rustic ones, and I don't want to do it any more as it's making more sense to only acquire those in decent shapes.

There are enough shavers out there who like these dirt-cheap razors (I am not one of them), but for a novice starting with one of those will often lead into a dead end street, I believe.
The novice tries, does not come to terms with the sub-standard razor, fails to achieve acceptable shaves, and gives up before long.
The outcome: the straight shaving experiment is over before it even began.

For a beginner it is hard enough to come to terms with shaving, stropping and honing a straight razor, as a mistake in just one of the three areas may ruin an otherwise perfect shave.
Starting with a razor that needs expert honing to correct inherent flaws is just not the way to go.

While I am not one who believes one has to spend $300 or more on a razor, these bargain basement, second-rate razors prove the saying that one gets what one pays for.

IMO it is preferable to start with an expertly restored second-hand razor or a good, not overly expensive new one that arrives in a shave-ready condition (e.g. a 5/8 Aust, but not necessarily a Dovo unless that one has been honed prior to sale).

If one want to learn to shave, $129 for a single Aust is IMO still a better deal than 5 x $3 for five razor-shaped objects.


B.

Originally Posted by beluga

There are enough shavers out there who like these dirt-cheap razors (I am not one of them), but for a novice starting with one of those will often lead into a dead end street, I believe.

Cannot agree more. I was proficient in knife sharpening before jumping on with straight razors, it still took me quite a few attempt to get the brand new Dovo Astrale with severe geometry issues shave ready. Those are not as bad as my Dovo Astrale, but all of them require lots of efforts to fix the spines and set the bevels correctly. Although I managed to get them shave ready, but I don't think they can easily achieved by a noob, if not totally impossible, even if they have all the necessary stones required.

Originally Posted by beluga

IMO it is preferable to start with an expertly restored second-hand razor or a good, not overly expensive new one that arrives in a shave-ready condition (e.g. a 5/8 Aust, but not necessarily a Dovo unless that one has been honed prior to sale).

If one want to learn to shave, $129 for a single Aust is IMO still a better deal than 5 x $3 for five razor-shaped objects.

I agree with most of your points here, but I'm not so sure about Dovo. Personally I would recommend to stay away from new Dovos at least. I had enough with my Dovo Astrale, which came with moderate spine issues, badly warped edges, but shave ready. I don't know how, but Dovo managed to get it shave ready. The other two Dovo Special only have minor spine issues and micro chips near the toes. They are not as bad as the Astrale, but do not really meet my expectations neither. I paid decent prices(~150USD each, not cheap I would say) for those 3 Dovos, but the quality of them were terrible or at best subpar.

A razor cannot shave doesn't matter how cheap it would be, it still an expensive junk. I know those are not good, I bought them solely to play with and share the results.

Even though I paid decent prices, I still got a junk Dovo and another slightly better Le Jaguar from online. It's a pity I literally cannot find a physical store selling straight razors in Sydney, so it's really a hit or miss game for me. But even if there were physical stores, I probably still could not have spotted the geometry issues of the Dovo Astrale with my bare eyes. I can now as I stepped into enough troubles already. The other issue is that it seems most razors are not really shave ready out of the box, even if they claim to be so. My Boker Schildpatt 2.0 was an example, not shave ready but almost no effort to get it shave ready. Either way, there is probably no difference for beginners, they need a community to support them in the early stages I would say.

I also avoid modern Dovos. Their quality has apparently improved since the buyout, but I have not tried or honed one.

As far as the Chinese razors go, stick with the Gold Dollars/Gold Monkeys. Any ‘ZY’ type blade or razor with wooden scales have mostly been a disappointment to me.

Buying Gold Dollars/Gold Monkeys is a numbers game. Recently I bought 12 of them for $4.41 each, delivered. The experience was ‘normal’ for these razors. Two honed right up, two are going to be more trouble than they’re worth, one I have not honed yet, and seven honed up with some degree of corrective honing and will be fine going forward. These numbers are consistent with my previous experience. Don’t expect every one to hone straightforwardly and expect a 20% failure rate. By ‘failure’ I mean that you can’t reasonable\y invest the time and expensive hone wear to get a sub-$5 razor with significant defects in shaving shape vs better examples of the same razor.

If you understand this and are OK with it, they can be fun to hone and to give as gifts. The good ones go to your friends and the bad ones to your enemies, yuk, yuk.

Originally Posted by Steve56

I also avoid modern Dovos. Their quality has apparently improved since the buyout, but I have not tried or honed one.

I bought my Dovos not long ago, more or less a year I would say. I'm not sure when was the buyout you were referring to, but if that was over a year ago, the quality is still terrible. 1 in 3 is a way too high defect rate.

Regarding Chinese razors, I guess I'm done with them at least for now. I was just curious on how good/bad those dirt cheap razors can be and I've just tried it myself. To me, all but the Kure Nai worth what I paid for, the Kure Nai although I managed to get it shave ready, but if the ground was just a little bit more off, I couldn't have made it. But even if they worth the prices, it still does not make sense for me to do it as it's way too much effort required.

Originally Posted by mrjin

…. But even if they worth the prices, it still does not make sense for me to do it as it's way too much effort required.

That’s why no one is buying the Chinese razors, honing them and reselling them to noobs anymore. It’s just a lot of work that wears you (and your stones) down after a while.

Whoa! That was a lot.

I admit I didn't read all or even most of all that but just on the surface it seems a lot like work to buy razors for the purpose of toiling over. Why not buy things that are free form all the problems, are made of decent steel and are worth having once you're done? Remember, once you have done all that messing around with it you still have cheap Chinese made crap. It reminds me of the adage, "you can't make chicken salad out of chicken manure."

I get the adventure aspect and the for the sake of the endeavor part I guess but my thought is, if you want to do a bunch of work to a blade why not make them yourself?

That's just my thoughts. I bought one or two and did what you are doing and at the end of it all I had significantly improved mediocre razors with no real or even palpable value. You'll never be able to sell it and recoup a mere pittance for your efforts.

If the point is to learn it seems to me that these don't really represent well anything that you would want to keep anyway. And, again, if you want to really get an understanding of what goes into repair and correcting blade geometry make some yourself. You don't have to forge them. Get some bar stock or some old large files and anneal them in a stoked charcoal fire and shape them by stock removal. That's how I got started.

Then, at the end of it all, once you have learned what it takes for it to take shape, take a bevel and shave plus learned how to craft one you will end up with a one of a kind, custom razor.

There are several reasons to go the Gold Dollar route.

One is when you want or need multiple identical razors say for comparing finishers, tomo nagura, and so on without putting wear on a 7-day set or matched pair of more valuable razors. I’ve used multiple GDs to do these kinds of tests many times, but always confirm the results on a higher quality razor. But they can keep wear off better razors.

When you order, you always order several because of the failure rate and shipping is usually free or cheap so why order just 2-3? Then of course you need to at least begin to hone them to identify the duds.

Another reason is to test metal polishing techniques, materials, stones and so on. You normally wouldn’t mar the finish on a fine razor to see if the latest batch of uchigumori scratches steel, but with a Gold Dollar there’s no problem. Granted you could use a cheap knife or tool to test for scratching.

I use one if I travel by air with checked luggage - no need to worry about losing the W&B Ottoman Egyptian and Royal Windsor, and if you leave one in a hotel room there’s no need to go back for it.

If you’re meeting fellow SR people in your travels or non-SR wet shaving folks, a ‘fixed’ and properly honed Gold Dollar is usually a very welcome gift.

Remanufacturing new blades is not common among straight razor users, but if you go to the kitchen knife forums you’ll find that thinning, re-grinding, and polishing blades is an everyday kind of thing. If you have a foot in that world, you have the tools and techniques to make fixing up most Gold Dollars fairly easy though not always as quick as I’d like because a razor is more fragile than a knife because it’s thinner.

Lastly, this is a hobby, at least to the lengths we go to, and you do many things just because it’s kind of fun. I like to hone, and if you have a fistful of Dollars, you’ll get your fix.

Those are all valid arguments and I don't begrudge anyone their right to do whatever the heck they please. I guess my perspective (in this moment at least) is from a restoration point of view. I buy razors to restore and resell and it is always a trick to balance the purchase price x effort and materials² ÷ final sale price = profit equation. Part of that is picking something that someone would spend money on because, if they won't, then all was for naught. Maybe I misjudge or assume too much but a reworked GD would never fit that bill for me. But, hey......who in the sam hill am I?