question about tape

**JimmyHAD** · 03-17-2011, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Gibbs

It's slightly more raise to a 4/8 razor than to one that is 6/8 or 7/8 though, due to the distance between the spine edge contact and the contact of the razor's cutting edge. However it's nearly not worth the worry, as the difference is almost unmeasurable.

I used tape my first year honing because of a lack of confidence. I was afraid I would cause undue spine wear because of my inexperience. At a year I took a micrometer and measured the spine on a NOS Solingen razor. I honed it and remeasured afterwards and there was no appreciable difference in the width of the spine at the honing flats.

I think if a person has a large rotation of razors, knows how to hone, and by virtue of the large rotation, is rarely honing each razor, spine wear won't be a issue. If it is a fellow with only a couple, and they will be honed more often over years of use, there will inevitably be some wear. If tape is used you won't have the wear at the spine but you will have it at the edge.

IMO there is a symbiotic relationship that develops between the spine and the edge if the razor is honed correctly and without tape. They wear in together and it becomes a partnership that corrects any anomalies between the two. If tape is used the anomalies in the spine are perpetuated and will continue to effect the edge. So if the honer knows not to use too much pressure, when to move on from one grit to another, and not go past "it", I think not using tape can be beneficial overall.

OTOH, if I was honing your razor, not mine, I'd probably tape the spine. Here is a link to a thread I started on this with a poll. Three pages of different voices, than those around today, on the topic. Enjoy.

**drgreen** · 03-17-2011, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

IMO there is a symbiotic relationship that develops between the spine and the edge if the razor is honed correctly and without tape. They wear in together and it becomes a partnership that corrects any anomalies between the two. If tape is used the anomalies in the spine are perpetuated and will continue to effect the edge. So if the honer knows not to use too much pressure, when to move on from one grit to another, and not go past "it", I think not using tape can be beneficial overall.

yep I definetly don't trust myself at honing (not yet at least), and I would hate to see my decorated spine all scratched up. tape it is for me.

**gssixgun** · 03-17-2011, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

IMO there is a symbiotic relationship that develops between the spine and the edge if the razor is honed correctly and without tape. They wear in together and it becomes a partnership that corrects any anomalies between the two. If tape is used the anomalies in the spine are perpetuated and will continue to effect the edge. So if the honer knows not to use too much pressure, when to move on from one grit to another, and not go past "it", I think not using tape can be beneficial overall.

Jimmy my good friend, please wake up, your dreaming of a perfect world brother

Maybe on a very experienced honers razor your symbiotic relationship I would trust... Like your own razors, that you hone Jimmy, because you know what your doing, and correct minor inconstancies as you hone...

But honestly in the real world all I see is a bunch of uneven wear and tear on the spines and the edge because most people just follow the razor and the stone which increases the inconsistencies instead of correcting them...

I always like my "Rutted Road" analogy, once the ruts (bad hone wear) are established, the more you drive down it, (hone) the deeper those ruts get, (hone wear).... Most people have no idea how to correct that, or even worse, how to prevent it...

You have linked to the Barber's Manuals at least 1000 times on how to hone for a slight smile yet I doubt many try it... Philadelph / Alex and myself have both done Vids on how to hone a smiling blade which are very very similar in method, yet few talk about that swooping stroke, to keep a smile, which will also create one

They just continue to tear up spines and edges by simply driving down the ruts...

Now back to everyone else's edge wear vs spine wear debate...

Please!!! give me a razor that has only bad edge wear, please, any day of the week,, I takes me all of 6 minutes to fix it (smooth out those ruts) but give me a razor with bad spine wear and that is an ugly that is bone deep

And that my friends is my opinion, and why I tape every single razor with 1 layer of 3M #700 (.007 thickness

) electrical tape...

Again they are your razors, and your stones and hones, so you do what ever floats yer boat

**Jaymo** · 03-18-2011, 04:16 AM

Well, I received a V. Brazda Praha str8 yesterday that I bought off da bay.
I found nicks in the edge, using my 16x jewelers loupe, that weren't visible in the pics. Small nicks, but nicks nonetheless.
I put 3 layers of electrical tape on the spine and set about eliminating the nicks and putting an edge on it. I didn't have any problems with tape imbedding in my hones. I started with the 800, then 1200, 4000, 8000, and finally 12000 grit hone. I haven't stropped it yet. I shaved the sides of my head with it tonight (finished the job with the Headblade) and it worked very well.

**AxelH** · 03-20-2011, 08:16 PM

Hmmmm. Very nice thread. I'll chime in...

With my mentor and a steel guy in mind.. what about the issue of different hardnesses of the edge and the spine, which from what I've been told was tested with one of those diamond dropping thingamawhatzits? I countered that the width (surface area) of the spine wear would eventually flatten out (grow) into a width that would counter-act the hardness difference. It's like a good question, even if answered sufficiently it can provoke even more questions...

What about an edge that mysteriously crumbles during honing, analyzed under a microscope, by someone who's already successfully honed a few razors (and knows he can make a quality edge because he's shaved with them)? Once the edge's untaped included angle is beyond the point of structurally stable shape taping is a non-issue, you either have a honed edge that crumbles under the confrontation with facial hairs which are the tensile strength equivalent of copper wire of the same thickness or an edge that can provide repeated shaves with the regular maintenance requirements.

My first antique store razor, and the first in my possession, was just such a razor. I could hone it to a mirror polish but it collapsed after the first shave and burnt me on the second. Twice. Then I thought it was because the edge's steel integrity was compromised, you know, the subtly corroded crap steel you can't detect with a microcope. Could shave at least once and didn't look corroded... first blade I held. Hmmmm... must be me!

Mentor set me straight, gave me his experience with razors on hones, thought about it awhile.. not one layer of tape, or two... I went up to three. I shaved with it for the standard duration of an edge's life before refreshing on the hone again (for me three weeks). I intentionally took it to unsatisfactory shaves to see how the edge held up. It finally worked exactly like the rest. CASE CLOSED.

Removing chips? How often is such a drastic measure undertaken in the life of a typical razor? eBetray finds provide a steady supply of resurrection razors ('cuz we bring 'em back from the dead!) that necessitate either edge-geometry-restoration or major edge work, removing easily decades worth of steel from the theoretical life of an average quality/hardness razor. Why not protect the thickness of the spine as much as possible for such an endeavor? You can always remove the tape and reset the bevel, with microscopes there isn't much guess work and moving up the grits (again..) it will return the razor to its original spine/edge relationship. This of course is mostly the concern of razors honed for others who intend on eventually refreshing their own razors (or the honer can tell them how many layers of tape they used so they can follow suit).

It may be a level of detail beyond what some newbies may want or be able to effectively utilize, pasted strops and such.. but I think dialogue between honer and shaver on this issue is appropriate if it's a concern.

Personally, my first razors included the chipped and dulled eBay variety, and I honed those chips out and made good shavers out of them. But if I could go back the least I'd do is tape, create new edge, untape and reset bevel and hone up to shaveready from there. Now I've got a few razors that are purely taped, if only one layer. I have no problem as I've tested how well they can strop up (I only have paddle strops).

I think there are many valid points on this subject, due to the subtle nature of the issue. I know taping is integral to the honing of a prospective new razor for me, from the condition I find them in, whether or not the final edge is taped or not. If it were almost shaveworthy maybe I wouldn't. It's a judgement call. Tape is a miracle worker for an exhausted relic.

**salazch** · 03-20-2011, 08:43 PM

I never understood the tape thing either, but this video helps.

YouTube - Straight Razor Honing Demonstration Part 7

**Lynn** · 03-22-2011, 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Jimmy my good friend, please wake up, your dreaming of a perfect world brother

Maybe on a very experienced honers razor your symbiotic relationship I would trust... Like your own razors, that you hone Jimmy, because you know what your doing, and correct minor inconstancies as you hone...

But honestly in the real world all I see is a bunch of uneven wear and tear on the spines and the edge because most people just follow the razor and the stone which increases the inconsistencies instead of correcting them...

I always like my "Rutted Road" analogy, once the ruts (bad hone wear) are established, the more you drive down it, (hone) the deeper those ruts get, (hone wear).... Most people have no idea how to correct that, or even worse, how to prevent it...

You have linked to the Barber's Manuals at least 1000 times on how to hone for a slight smile yet I doubt many try it... Philadelph / Alex and myself have both done Vids on how to hone a smiling blade which are very very similar in method, yet few talk about that swooping stroke, to keep a smile, which will also create one

They just continue to tear up spines and edges by simply driving down the ruts...

Now back to everyone else's edge wear vs spine wear debate...

Please!!! give me a razor that has only bad edge wear, please, any day of the week,, I takes me all of 6 minutes to fix it (smooth out those ruts) but give me a razor with bad spine wear and that is an ugly that is bone deep

And that my friends is my opinion, and why I tape every single razor with 1 layer of 3M #700 (.007 thickness

) electrical tape...

Again they are your razors, and your stones and hones, so you do what ever floats yer boat

One layer of tape or even two over a spine that is flattened and uneven will give you a razor with a little less wear on the spine and a reflection of the existing spine wear on the edge unless you do a rolling X.

Tape remains personal preference in my book unless you are protecting a pattern weld or fancy spine or if you are repairing a razor on the hones and need to remove a lot of steel from the edge.

It like some of the restorations I see where the pictures are taken before the honing. In many cases, you end up with a shiney razor that has uneven flattening on the spine and shiney pitting.

Taping will always be a mixed bag as we have seen from the year of discussion to date.

Have fun,

Lynn

**Gibbs** · 03-22-2011, 06:36 PM

The video above is pretty much spot on. I worked as a machinist for The Boeing Company in Seattle, WA years ago. When tooling was set up to hold a cutting piece, it had to be positioned just right, and had to have just the right amount of height, position etc. for the N/C computer controlled machines to grab that tool, index it, and position it for the removal of metal it was about to take.

If you honed say 5 razors with no tape and that have some degree of spine wear, it will give you an edge based on the amount of spine left. Good or bad, that angle is what it is. Now, since I have seen a few razors, it becomes readily apparent that on a 5/8 razor that there are differences between makers on the size or thickness of the original spine. Let's measure. I have digital calipers in hand and will take the WIDEST spot on the spine (no flattening), but nearest "original" widths as possible and see:

WISS : 0.187"
Wadsworth : 0.188"
Hammond : 0.189"
AK-SAR-BEN: 0.177"
MULCUTO : 0.153"
Oxford : 0 192:

Filarmonica #13 (is a 6/8) : 0.197"
Ramapo Co.(is a 6/8) : 0.214"
J.A. Henckels 4/8: 0.141"

Some will give a wider bevel than others. The thinner the spine to distance, the bevel will be wider given the thickness at the blade edge was the same. The relationship between spine thickness and bevel is also factored by the shorter 4/8 width Henckels, which has a smaller width bevel (honed portion) as compared to the 6/8 Ramapo, which has a large width bevel easily seen by your eyes.

You could hone bare and the bevel will be what it is. Some are more or less in the final degree depending on the distance between bevel edge and edge of the razor. The closer you get to the spine, the narrower will be the bevel width and the angle will change some.

However, if you tape and hone after the full width of the bevel is established with the coarser stones, you will end up with a slightly steeper angle, and the hone will miss the part of the bevel that is closest to the spine, kind of giving greater angle on a secondary bevel. Some do this for this very reason.

But, if you hone a new bevel completely with tape ALL the way from the edge back and that is your bevel, if you ever hone without tape, you will merely hit further up the bevel with the hones misses hitting the actual cutting edge because you have lessened the angle (without tape) of the relationship to spine:edge. You would have to do major honing to completely eliminate the bevel created by the original taped spine to re-establish one long continuous slope of the bevel. Clear as mud!!

Now let's say you just want a double bevel, which tape on a previously honed razor will create. That will work for a while. Eventually, if you hone it enough, that edge is going to move further up toward the spine and you will end up with one straight bevel, not double. Sometime you would need to really hone away the edge again without tape and re-tape and put in an additional bevel if that was your liking. Keeping in mind, that even though your spine will stay pretty much the same as it was protected by the tape, such a re-establishment of a new bevel as I pointed out will cause you to loose blade dimensions. IE your 6/8 will turn into a 5/8, then a 7/16, then a 4/8 and so on, getting less and less until you have a nice "short" razor for getting those pesky nose hairs.

**niftyshaving** · 03-22-2011, 11:08 PM

There are two other tape considerations
that I have not seen discussed. Might as
well toss them out.

One is to protect the hone
Two is to help manage slurry.

Given the price of some hones I would tape to
limit the amount of steel wearing away my
precious hones. Razors are $30 on eBay when
a fine hone can be +$400 so protect the hone.

Conservation of slurry is perhaps the most
important point. For those that flip a razor
and trap slurry in the hollow of the grind the
slurry gets concentrated and too aggressive on
the spine. Master honemasters sometimes use a pigtail stroke
to gather slurry in front of the edge where it
can work best and wear the spine less.

Contrary to this conservation of slurry is the coticul
where it is sometimes more important to take advantage
of the spine and bust off the tops of larger garnet bits
for the final stages of dilution. Without the garnet busting
effect all but the most rare coticles ever get an
optimum smooth edge without it.

Heck.... I do not know... but thought I should point out
these rare and secret secrets of honing.

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