Thread: The Truth About The Barber's Notch

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

My idea that the small notches may have been there to hold one end of the blade in a fixture for some step in the manufacturing process comes from my limited experience with milling machines and lathes when building tattoo machines. As anyone who has messed with mills/lathes knows, you frequently have to fashion jigs/fixtures to hold work securely.

Looking at the evolution of the straight razor blade and scales it seems to me that the notch evolved along with the distinct tang, longer monkey tail, slight curve to the scales. IOW, they found a purpose for it. Whether it was to more easily get around the nostrils when trimming a mustache, as I believe, or to allow the razor to be opened with one hand is something we'll probably never know.

Of all the serious answers in this thread I like this one.

If I watch the videos of Dovo or TI modern shops they now use heavy
powered hammer to forge the shape in one or two blows. In some
cases two blades at a time followed by a cutter step to remove
the razor from the raw stock.

If I was building tools to hammer out a blade I would like to be able
to have an index mark to push the object into so that the blade
would line up for the next tool after reheating...

That index notch would have evolved and been styled to
what we see today... Or it would have been ground off.

While we chart the progression of the notch over time
we might also track the availability of heavy forge hammers.
Of value in tracking the forge hammer tools might be
a bit of info on how well the razor shaves. My emotions
want steel that has been hammered a lot and has almost
a shot peening effect including the time that it is necessary
to remove scale and decarborized steel in the finishing
steps.l

Nifty,

I'm with you on the peening. I have an old Greaves Sheafworks that looks like it might have been peened. I'm more familiar with peening my European scythe blade. The beauty of those blades (as opposed to the stamped-out American blades) is that the whole depth of the blade is a reservoir of steel for the edge. You draw the new steel foward by peening, work-hardening it at the same time. Did a small tree put a nick in your scythe? No problem, round off the damage with a file then peen some new steel out to fill the gap. I wish we could do that with our razors.

Originally Posted by roughkype

Nifty,

I'm with you on the peening. I have an old Greaves Sheafworks that looks like it might have been peened. I'm more familiar with peening my European scythe blade. The beauty of those blades (as opposed to the stamped-out American blades) is that the whole depth of the blade is a reservoir of steel for the edge. You draw the new steel foward by peening, work-hardening it at the same time. Did a small tree put a nick in your scythe? No problem, round off the damage with a file then peen some new steel out to fill the gap. I wish we could do that with our razors.

Well I do not make razors so take my bias with a grain of salt.
But bias is what lets me bid $4.00 on an old rusty junker then after
sanding and fiddling on the hones I permit myself to imagine
that I can feel the heat of the forge as I shave and then the tempering
chill of a cold splash of well water when done. Sometimes I get
a good shave as a bonus.

I know next to nothing about the actual making of razors or knives but I've always had a preference for the forged blade , as opposed to stock removal. This is a contentious issue on knife forums and in magazine and books, on the topic, before the web came to be. I have had some custom razors made with the stock removal method and intellectually I know they are "as good," but in my heart I want a blade that was beaten to shape on an anvil, its molecules formed by the heat, pressure and impact. Even if it is no better in fact, it has soul that can't be got any other way. Just IMHO.

Well ... forging does produce a different crystaline structure in the metal than stock removal. That's simple fact. Is it better for this purpose? I have no idea. Either way the razor could take my ear off so ...

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I know next to nothing about the actual making of razors or knives but I've always had a preference for the forged blade , as opposed to stock removal. This is a contentious issue on knife forums and in magazine and books, on the topic, before the web came to be. I have had some custom razors made with the stock removal method and intellectually I know they are "as good," but in my heart I want a blade that was beaten to shape on an anvil, its molecules formed by the heat, pressure and impact. Even if it is no better in fact, it has soul that can't be got any other way. Just IMHO.

Yep a contentious topic.
Stock removal is another way to say waste removal
and waste is money lost in any process. The astoundingly
high quality steel we enjoy for razors has been rare and
is still difficult to find. The bigger foundries pound, hammer
and roll this fine steel into sheets that then make great
razor stock. If a shop can save 15-20% of the input stock
via forging and recycling they can ship me a fine razor for
perhaps 10-15% less.

Custom grinding and custom heat treating opens doors to
razors that are not possible with a volume process.

If the result is good then all is good.

Originally Posted by MickRussell

Well ... forging does produce a different crystaline structure in the metal than stock removal. That's simple fact. Is it better for this purpose? I have no idea. Either way the razor could take my ear off so ...

This has been discussed before. All steel these days is forged in the steel mills. It's rolled / squeezed / flattened by force, which is the same as hammering it by hand, albeit much faster. The stock that e.g. Robert Williams starts with is already forged. He just hammers it into a different shape. So from that pov, stock removal or forging is the same when it comes to making a razor out of stock.

I agree about the aesthetics angle Jimmy mentioned. but from a practical pov, it is not an issue. Especially considering that the steel has to be heat-treated after shaping it anyway. Whatever crystalline stucture there will be, will be caused by the heat treatment.

Originally Posted by niftyshaving

If a shop can save 15-20% of the input stock
via forging and recycling they can ship me a fine razor for
perhaps 10-15% less.

I don't think so. Specialty steels like wootz excepting, the price of a razor is not determined by the 10% of waste. If you work with O1 or similar easy to get steel, the price is determined by the time to manufacture it and operating cost of the infrastructure. Only for high volume manufacturing (and specialty steel) do those 10%s matter. For customs shops it is negligible.

Originally Posted by Bruno

I don't think so. Specialty steels like wootz excepting, the price of a razor is not determined by the 10% of waste. If you work with O1 or similar easy to get steel, the price is determined by the time to manufacture it and operating cost of the infrastructure. Only for high volume manufacturing (and specialty steel) do those 10%s matter. For customs shops it is negligible.

+1 exactly so...
For custom shops it is a do not care.

Just to make myself clear ....... This is what I'm talkin' about ;

UNDER a spreading chestnut tree
The village smithy stands;
The smith, a mighty man is he,
With large and sinewy hands;
And the muscles of his brawny arms 5
Are strong as iron bands.

His hair is crisp, and black, and long,
His face is like the tan;
His brow is wet with honest sweat,
He earns whate'er he can, 10
And looks the whole world in the face,
For he owes not any man.

Week in, week out, from morn till night,
You can hear his bellows blow;
You can hear him swing his heavy sledge 15
With measured beat and slow,
Like a sexton ringing the village bell,
When the evening sun is low.

And children coming home from school
Look in at the open door; 20
They love to see the flaming forge,
And hear the bellows roar,
And watch the burning sparks that fly
Like chaff from a threshing-floor.

He goes on Sunday to the church, 25
And sits among his boys;
He hears the parson pray and preach,
He hears his daughter's voice,
Singing in the village choir,
And it makes his heart rejoice. 30

It sounds to him like her mother's voice,
Singing in Paradise!
He needs must think of her once more,
How in the grave she lies;
And with his hard, rough hand he wipes 35
A tear out of his eyes.

Toiling,—rejoicing,—sorrowing,
Onward through life he goes;
Each morning sees some task begin,
Each evening sees it close; 40
Something attempted, something done,
Has earned a night's repose.

Thanks, thanks to thee, my worthy friend,
For the lesson thou hast taught!
Thus at the flaming forge of life 45
Our fortunes must be wrought;
Thus on its sounding anvil shaped
Each burning deed and thought!

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. 1807–1882