Thread: Horrible shave.

I respectfully disagree with what's been said here about:

1. TPT damaging the edge (You mean to tell me that skin feeling the edge of a blade, not cutting it, will damage the edge? That's some fragile ass edge lol. Never happened to me, so I don't buy it for a second)

2. Oiled razor and HHT (Yes, but I must question, how much oil was on there? You must assume that oil was off the very edge, either due to wiping, stropping, plain physics, whatever. It's not like the blade was dipped in oil and then: "Here you go, now do the HHT my man!"),

3. ONE (or two, or three) bad strokes on the strop ruining the edge - Seriously, this myth has plagued this place since I know of it - many bad strokes, maybe, but a few misses should not impact it so greatly, that a user should feel they need to open a new thread to talk about their horrible shave and

4. Pretty much everything else that's implying a user error, glorifying the obviously bad honing job. The OP said the razor does not pull arm hair.. or let's say, maybe it doesn't pull it well. That's a less than perfect honing job right there. I don't get why it's a problem to say, or assume this...? A razor off of an 8k hone, stropped, might pull arm hair (badly) and it might shave, uncomfortably. But is that a shave ready razor, service paid for at that? I believe it isn't. Especially at the honing rates you guys pay in the US/UK/the "western world" in general. Off topic, I once inquired about a honing rate for a razor with a slightly imprefect heel and was offered the service at the rate of 30 GBP. Well for 30 GBP I then went, bought 2 hones and did it myself.

Back on topic, I guess since I've not held the razor in my hands, this opinion is as good as any other here. Apologies if this sounds like a rant, it is not meant to be. It's just a perspective.

Originally Posted by Srdjan

I respectfully disagree with what's been said here about:

1. TPT damaging the edge (You mean to tell me that skin feeling the edge of a blade, not cutting it, will damage the edge? That's some fragile ass edge lol. Never happened to me, so I don't buy it for a second)

2. Oiled razor and HHT (Yes, but I must question, how much oil was on there? You must assume that oil was off the very edge, either due to wiping, stropping, plain physics, whatever. It's not like the blade was dipped in oil and then: "Here you go, now do the HHT my man!"),

3. ONE (or two, or three) bad strokes on the strop ruining the edge - Seriously, this myth has plagued this place since I know of it - many bad strokes, maybe, but a few misses should not impact it so greatly, that a user should feel they need to open a new thread to talk about their horrible shave and

4. Pretty much everything else that's implying a user error, glorifying the obviously bad honing job. The OP said the razor does not pull arm hair.. or let's say, maybe it doesn't pull it well. That's a less than perfect honing job right there. I don't get why it's a problem to say, or assume this...? A razor off of an 8k hone, stropped, might pull arm hair (badly) and it might shave, uncomfortably. But is that a shave ready razor, service paid for at that? I believe it isn't. Especially at the honing rates you guys pay in the US/UK/the "western world" in general. Off topic, I once inquired about a honing rate for a razor with a slightly imprefect heel and was offered the service at the rate of 30 GBP. Well for 30 GBP I then went, bought 2 hones and did it myself.

Back on topic, I guess since I've not held the razor in my hands, this opinion is as good as any other here. Apologies if this sounds like a rant, it is not meant to be. It's just a perspective.

1,2,3 are ment to assist you in judging if your ready to go forward

briancorneal, I've just read through your thread. I want to stress strongly that your add to your bio where you are at to hopefully jostle local senior members or mentors to contact you for a couple of face-to-face sessions. All the reading and video watching can do just so much. A couple of one-on-one sessions adds the level of show, try, correct instantly to your learning curve. I've mentored via emails and I've mentored face-to-face. Any chance I get to help someone in person is worth the time and, possibly, the distance, to get together to achieve a series of positive results.

A good mentor, or senior member, will help to the best of their ability and know who to contact to solve those areas they can't handle. If you are in Oregon then by all means shoot me a PM and lets see if we can connect. If not, knowing where you are will help us point you towards someone in your area that can assist.

No apology here and I'm not going to mince words. You are flat out wrong on number 3. It is not a myth--ONE bad stroke on the strop will roll an edge.

Originally Posted by Utopian

No apology here and I'm not going to mince words. You are flat out wrong on number 3. It is not a myth--ONE bad stroke on the strop will roll an edge.

Yup - been there, done that - and at first didn't even know I'd done it!

When I first started, had a great visit with Phil at the Classic Edge, asked him to look at my razors because they weren't shaving well, I had 7 razors at the time, 4 had badly rolled edges and 2 were not great, and I thought I was stropping perfectly.

I've had a tiny mistroke on the strop, and knew right away I'd partially rolled the edge...shaved anyway with it, and sure enough, ended up with a patchy shave.

100% agree with you Utopian - and that one is easy peasy to demonstrate.

Originally Posted by Srdjan

I respectfully disagree with what's been said here about:

1. TPT damaging the edge (You mean to tell me that skin feeling the edge of a blade, not cutting it, will damage the edge? That's some fragile ass edge lol. Never happened to me, so I don't buy it for a second)

2. Oiled razor and HHT (Yes, but I must question, how much oil was on there? You must assume that oil was off the very edge, either due to wiping, stropping, plain physics, whatever. It's not like the blade was dipped in oil and then: "Here you go, now do the HHT my man!"),

3. ONE (or two, or three) bad strokes on the strop ruining the edge - Seriously, this myth has plagued this place since I know of it - many bad strokes, maybe, but a few misses should not impact it so greatly, that a user should feel they need to open a new thread to talk about their horrible shave and

4. Pretty much everything else that's implying a user error, glorifying the obviously bad honing jobThe OP said the razor does not pull arm hair.. or let's say, maybe it doesn't pull it well. That's a less than perfect honing job right there. . I don't get why it's a problem to say, or assume this...? A razor off of an 8k hone, stropped, might pull arm hair (badly) and it might shave, uncomfortably. But is that a shave ready razor, service paid for at that? I believe it isn't. Especially at the honing rates you guys pay in the US/UK/the "western world" in general. Off topic, I once inquired about a honing rate for a razor with a slightly imprefect heel and was offered the service at the rate of 30 GBP. Well for 30 GBP I then went, bought 2 hones and did it myself.

Back on topic, I guess since I've not held the razor in my hands, this opinion is as good as any other here. Apologies if this sounds like a rant, it is not meant to be. It's just a perspective.

My previous response was on my phone, so I kept it brief with a first impression. This time, not so much.

1. This one, and only this one, I was going to let go, right up until you wrote "Never happened to me, so I don't buy it for a second." Here is the critical point...this forum is not just for you. Others play here too and their experiences are likely to be different from yours. First of all, if you have ever watched people do the thumb pad test, you would know that some people really crank on the edge sideways like they would a knife, and yes it is possible for them to roll the edge. It's not likely, but it can happen. The most critical point is that no testing of a pro-honed blade should be done by a beginner who has no basis for evaluating the test result anyway. The test is meaningless in the hands of someone who does not know what they are doing.

2. Speaking of meaningless tests, the king of them is the HHT. The HHT is done by some honers as an evaluation of the edge. For the HHT to be of any benefit at all, that test, like all tests, must have some means of calibration. Again, a beginner has no frame of reference and therefore is unable to calibrate anything so once again the test is meaningless in the hands of a beginner.

I in no way must assume that the oil is removed from the edge. AGAIN, a beginner should never strop a razor just received from a honer. I am of the opinion that they should not wipe oil off the the edge either, but some disagree with that. Regardless, it takes a lot of wiping to remove all of the oil from an edge. It ain't physics, it's just what I have observed under a microscope. Only stropping is going to completely remove the oil from the edge and that again puts the edge at risk of bad stropping by a beginner. Again, this is why a razor should be shaved with right out of the box in order to get the edge created by the honer.

3. You are welcome to your plague. I've already addressed this one. If you would like, I can make of video of one bad stropping stroke and the resulting rolled edge.

4. "Obviously bad honing job"??? Where do you get off assessing the honing of a blade evaluated by a beginner? How do you know if it is a bad honing job? That is not respectful disagreement, that is just plain ignorance.

OP said the razor does not pull arm hair.. or let's say, maybe it doesn't pull it well. That's a less than perfect honing job right there."

Really? In that case, neither I, nor Randy, nor Sham, nor Lynn can hone worth a damn, because not one of my or their edges can pull or cut my arm hair. I happen to have the arm hair of a three year old girl (or something comparable) and so my arm hair is useless for such assessment. AGAIN, calibration of tests is critical for their being of any use to anyone. Beginners have no business attempting such assessments. Hell, they can't even shave yet.

Originally Posted by Srdjan

1. TPT damaging the edge (You mean to tell me that skin feeling the edge of a blade, not cutting it, will damage the edge? That's some fragile ass edge lol. Never happened to me, so I don't buy it for a second)

And, on #1. Never happened to you? Maybe your honing doesn't quite equate to a "fragile ass edge".

But even when doing the TPT at the appropriate time, bevel set, the honer still does more laps to correct any deformity done. Now, that's at the bevel set. And if that's already a "FAE" then what is a finished edge by a competent honer on a shave ready blade?

Once at the finishing stages of honing, the slightest pressure, i.e. a TPT at an obtuse, or any angle will more than fold, but damage the "finn", a foil thick edge. Never a good test at the end, and only a good test at bevel set if you do some additional laps to repair.

Your experience sounds more at the knife sharpening stage, and though both are rubbing metal on stone, the razor is a much more finessed edge than a knife.

Howard

Originally Posted by SirStropalot

And, on #1. Never happened to you? Maybe your honing doesn't quite equate to a "fragile ass edge".

But even when doing the TPT at the appropriate time, bevel set, the honer still does more laps to correct any deformity done. Now, that's at the bevel set. And if that's already a "FAE" then what is a finished edge by a competent honer on a shave ready blade?

Once at the finishing stages of honing, the slightest pressure, i.e. a TPT at an obtuse, or any angle will more than fold, but damage the "finn", a foil thick edge. Never a good test at the end, and only a good test at bevel set if you do some additional laps to repair.

Your experience sounds more at the knife sharpening stage, and though both are rubbing metal on stone, the razor is a much more finessed edge than a knife.

Howard

Originally Posted by Utopian

My previous response was on my phone, so I kept it brief with a first impression. This time, not so much.

1. This one, and only this one, I was going to let go, right up until you wrote "Never happened to me, so I don't buy it for a second." Here is the critical point...this forum is not just for you. Others play here too and their experiences are likely to be different from yours. First of all, if you have ever watched people do the thumb pad test, you would know that some people really crank on the edge sideways like they would a knife, and yes it is possible for them to roll the edge. It's not likely, but it can happen. The most critical point is that no testing of a pro-honed blade should be done by a beginner who has no basis for evaluating the test result anyway. The test is meaningless in the hands of someone who does not know what they are doing.

2. Speaking of meaningless tests, the king of them is the HHT. The HHT is done by some honers as an evaluation of the edge. For the HHT to be of any benefit at all, that test, like all tests, must have some means of calibration. Again, a beginner has no frame of reference and therefore is unable to calibrate anything so once again the test is meaningless in the hands of a beginner.

I in no way must assume that the oil is removed from the edge. AGAIN, a beginner should never strop a razor just received from a honer. I am of the opinion that they should not wipe oil off the the edge either, but some disagree with that. Regardless, it takes a lot of wiping to remove all of the oil from an edge. It ain't physics, it's just what I have observed under a microscope. Only stropping is going to completely remove the oil from the edge and that again puts the edge at risk of bad stropping by a beginner. Again, this is why a razor should be shaved with right out of the box in order to get the edge created by the honer.

3. You are welcome to your plague. I've already addressed this one. If you would like, I can make of video of one bad stropping stroke and the resulting rolled edge.

4. "Obviously bad honing job"??? Where do you get off assessing the honing of a blade evaluated by a beginner? How do you know if it is a bad honing job? That is not respectful disagreement, that is just plain ignorance.

OP said the razor does not pull arm hair.. or let's say, maybe it doesn't pull it well. That's a less than perfect honing job right there."

Really? In that case, neither I, nor Randy, nor Sham, nor Lynn can hone worth a damn, because not one of my or their edges can pull or cut my arm hair. I happen to have the arm hair of a three year old girl (or something comparable) and so my arm hair is useless for such assessment. AGAIN, calibration of tests is critical for their being of any use to anyone. Beginners have no business attempting such assessments. Hell, they can't even shave yet.

I could go and do the long answer, but the point is: You guys are talking about things that happen assuming the user is completely illiterate when it comes to any of this. This is my problem. This has nothing to do with what's reported in the OP. I am not disputing that things you noted happen, but only in extreme situations, which I felt this is not.

Kindly read the first post carefully and you'll see there was no stropping involved, nor TPTs for that matter, only the objective HHT: razor pulling less hair than before it was sent. I agree that HHT is somewhat pointless, but not entirely, when you set your own frame of reference (same hair, same shaving technique, comparing shave comfort...).

I was a total newbie once, yet I shaved with my first straight for a full year, before it had to go on a hone again. I am not important here, what's important is that there is enough info around for anyone to do this. It's really not that complicated. So, rather than assuming it's a user error, I'm gonna assume it's a honer error. It's just a point of view from someone who does not sharpen that many knives, but their own straight razors, almost exclusively.

My guess would be that this blade might only need a new polish starting around 6K, or silimar. Anyway, needs to go back to the hones. What the few years old version of me would do is, I'd probably get back to the honer for advice. If they're decent, no doubt they are, they'll take another look at the blade. Free of charge, because this is now probably a 5 min job.

Of course all it needs is a touch up and not a 6K, just a few laps on a 20, 12 K or natural finisher.

The OP says in the first post, “I’m sure it was operator error” and in the second post that, he stropped it after he could not do an HHT, but that it did cut arm and leg hair.

Hair cutting is not a conclusive test for a lot of reasons. Bottom line is the shave test is all that matters and by the time he got to the shave it was no longer a shave ready edge. And yes, a shave ready edge is very fragile, that is the whole point.

What we have to remember is that these threads are read by hundreds of new guys looking for advice, and believe a lot of bad information that is written, like hair test. They are un-reliable, if it works for you great, does not mean it will work for the next new guy.

To the OP, the razor needs a tough up, send it back to the honer or if you like PM me and I will do it for you.
You will still need to learn to strop, find a local mentor.

Originally Posted by Utopian

No apology here and I'm not going to mince words. You are flat out wrong on number 3. It is not a myth--ONE bad stroke on the strop will roll an edge.

No. One bad stroke MAY destroy an edge. If that stroke is excessively forceful or the spine lifted greatly from the strop's surface. If moderate stropping harms an edge then that edge was too fragile to start with. It would have crumbled even by shaving with it.