Thread: Holding an edge...

Well, i guess it's time to bring again my DOVO stainless in the game... The thing with CPM steel is that it will have better carbon consistency in the alloy, thus preventing the micro chipping? Also, the reason hi-carbon non stainless steel is prefered for now as a shaving steel is that instead of edge breaking when in contact with the whiskers, it "crumbles" or compresses, which can be later "ironed" or straightened up again with the strop... That's another theory of mine, that the strop is actually pulling the edge thinner, just like the worker is hammering the edge of his scyte, but that's a differnt post altogether. I think today's stainless used in razors by DOVO is not up to the quality of the hi carbon, because of the reasons you stated. DOVO didn't had much user's input and feedback like in the razor's heydays to fine tune their stainless steel. I wish I can try the razors made by Maestro with ATS-34 steel, which is CPM steel, to see if the advatage of "modern steels" well utilised, and is good for straigt razors. Acording to Lynn, it is... Now, i dont have much experience in sharpening stainless razors, but I think I am willing to sacrifice a bit more time on the hone for doubling or tripling the edge's life. Hmm, I dont know, but I think if you soften the stainless a few points on the Rockwell, you will get the same edge holding capabilities as in the hi-carbon steel. It might be better if you try to harden the stainless the highest number possible, but taking advantage on the metals in the alloy, which are supposed to make the edge stronger... That will also bring more time on the hone. It will be nice if Darrel could make two prototypes for testing, one properly heat treated, and the other a bit softer...

Nenad

[QUOTE=superfly]I wish I can try the razors made by Maestro with ATS-34 steel, which is CPM steel, to see if the advatage of "modern steels" well utilised, and is good for straigt razors. Acording to Lynn, it is...softer...

I used my INOX Damascus blade from the Maestro for about a month (25 - 30 shaves) and I only honed it becase I chiped the blade somehow. I make the first pass across the grain and do not feal a thing!

Mason

Mason, that's great info. Can you please tell us what is the number of shaves you usualy get from your other razors?

thanx,
Nenad

ATS34 isn't a CPM steel. CPM means Crucible Particle Metalurgy, and it is a process through which CPM steels are made, thus the nomenclature. ATS34 is a high speed bearing steel made to hold up under extreme environments. It is a great cutter, but I can't see how it's softer. At 60-62 rockwell, it is indeed MUCH harder than the old carbon steels of yore. You could take that blade and shave slices off of an old razor. ATS has been popular with custom knifemakers for some years now, as it is affordable, easy to work with on a grinder and easy to heat treat. That and it is a fantastic performer in all facets of the cutlery world. It's an all around great steel. But it is no wonder steel. That category is a bit more pricey, and a bit more diffucult to work with. So I am told by several knifemaker friends anyway. I have different blades of all of the above and I use them, but no razors yet. I can attest to their attributes in knives, that's about it. We'll see what happens. Darrel mentioned not taking them too high on the Rockwell because if you did with CPM, we couldn't sharpen it. You'd almost have to go diamond, otherwise it would take weeks on end. A finishing smooth leather strop would be useless. CPM440V I made a kitchen knife of the stuff, hardened to 62, and it took FOREVER to get an edge on, that was with a Burr King! I think what I would like to see is a CPM razor that will respond to our methods almost as easily as our antiques, but will get WAY sharper, and hold it longer, even at a lower hardness. That will keep the brittleness away as well. ......Jeff

Originally Posted by threeputt

ATS34 isn't a CPM steel. CPM means Crucible Particle Metalurgy, and it is a process through which CPM steels are made, thus the nomenclature.

Actually ATS34 is a CPM.
ATS 34 started out as '154-CM' (i.e. cruciable metalurgy-> which changed to crucible particle metalurgy), but was not made in the sizes and volumes many knife makers needed so it was difficult to obtain and work with. Enter Hitachi Steel, with its "ATS-34", which is 154-CM.

Gonna toss my hat in this ring and let you folks know that I've heard back from the tungsten people. They say that the metal will indeed probably be too brittle (props to Tony for calling this first). There were ideas tossed around for Talonite, but I did some research and found that doesn't hold up very well and the Cobalt makes it very expensive. I've contacted a custom knife maker that works with CPMs to see if he can't make us some razors out of CPM-10V I haven't heard back from him, but I informed him that we'd probably want 100 for an initial run.

I have knives made of ATS34 as well as 154CM, and as far as I can tell they are almost identical, although I prefer 154CM if possible, only because it is made in the United States, unlike ATS34.
Both are good steels, IMHO, my bias notwithstanding.
I HOPE they wouldn't cut slices off of my razors, which I think is just as much about hardness of temper as it is about the steel;anyway...who would do such a thing....?
John P

Originally Posted by Kelly

Enter Hitachi Steel, with its "ATS-34", which is 154-CM.

The steel I am referring to is CPM154, not 154CM. Two different animals. CPM154 is a new steel from Crucible in Texas. That's the steel Darrel will be using. Ultra pure, powdered steel with a very small grain size. Not cheap either, but in an application such as this it shouldn't be too bad. It should make for an incredible razor blade, performance wise. I think the trick will be to get the HT just right so it will be soft enough to respond to our stone and strop methods and not be brittle, while still taking AND HOLDING a very very sharp edge. We'll see how it turns out.... ..........Jeff

Hi Guys, Gals,

I have finally started making Razors. SO far I have found the cpm154 to be very nice for this application. I will be making some really cool razor blades soon.
All suggestions that I can possibly do I will try.
Let me here them.
CPM10v would make a nice razor as would s90v.
The problem is the vanadium would not strop well.
It glazes so easy.
Diamond paste might work.
I have some carbon material that I think you all may like.

Originally Posted by Kelly

Actually ATS34 is a CPM.
ATS 34 started out as '154-CM' (i.e. cruciable metalurgy-> which changed to crucible particle metalurgy), but was not made in the sizes and volumes many knife makers needed so it was difficult to obtain and work with. Enter Hitachi Steel, with its "ATS-34", which is 154-CM.

ATS-34 is a conventionally produced high carbon stainless tool steel. It is NOT a CPM steel. If it doesn't have CPM in front of it, it ain't a CPM steel, as CPM (Crucible Particle Metallurgy) is a patented, copyrighted manufacturing process. There are a couple European companies making powdered steel, but ATS-34 isn't one of them. RWL-34 is the powder steel version of ATS-34, and is designated as such.