To Scythe or not to scythe...

**Utopian** · 08-06-2010, 03:50 AM

If you want to call that scything because it's a pivoting motion, OK, but that is not remotely close to how a scythe actually cuts. That stroke completely misses the point of the huge efficiently improvement that resulted from the scythe.

If you doubt me, watch the video again. The blade approaches the grass in what the Wiki describes as a guillotine stroke, at an extremely low angle. The angle of approach is the reason for the efficiency of the cut. The edge of the blade does not cut straight through the stem, the blade moves along its length as it passes through the stem. (Clearly I'm going to have to make a diagram.)

That diagram more accurately depicts a machete motion, with the blade simply pivoting from the wrist. To use the earlier analogy from the Wiki, that is simply an arcing axe stroke. There is barely any cutting improvement in that stroke relative to a straight stroke.

**hi_bud_gl** · 08-06-2010, 04:00 AM

Easy way to say
think about slicing tomatoes. forward and backward.
Usually is barber shaves you will use forward motion.
if you are shaving yourself most face will get backward motion except under the chin area.Some places will need forward motion .

**Utopian** · 08-06-2010, 04:43 AM

Yup, I've tried to describe it as similar to slicing tomatoes and others have objected.

Below is a very poor depiction of the blade's start and finish position relative to a single stalk of straw, or a single whisker. This is how a scythe cuts and this is how I consider a shaving scything stroke should cut. The arrow is just a reference point on the blade.

**Alembic** · 08-06-2010, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Utopian

If you want to call that scything because it's a pivoting motion, OK, but that is not remotely close to how a scythe actually cuts. That stroke completely misses the point of the huge efficiently improvement that resulted from the scythe.

If you doubt me, watch the video again. The blade approaches the grass in what the Wiki describes as a guillotine stroke, at an extremely low angle. The angle of approach is the reason for the efficiency of the cut. The edge of the blade does not cut straight through the stem, the blade moves along its length as it passes through the stem. (Clearly I'm going to have to make a diagram.)

That diagram more accurately depicts a machete motion, with the blade simply pivoting from the wrist. To use the earlier analogy from the Wiki, that is simply an arcing axe stroke. There is barely any cutting improvement in that stroke relative to a straight stroke.

Ok - if the vocabulary is hanging this up - call it whatever you want. This is an arcing motion about a pivot point - either at the finger tips or at the wrist.

So lets just called it an arc cut instead of a scythe cut. So we would have:

1. Straight cut - refers to the garden variety straight pass motion that is in a continuous straight line and the edge perpendicular to a whisker. It works for WTG, XTG and ATG.

2. Shearing cut (also called the guillotine cut) - refers to a straight pass motion that is in a continuous straight line and the edge is at some angle to the whisker - either heel trailing toe or toe trailing heel. It works for WTG, XTG and ATG.

3. Arc cut - refers to any cut that where the toe sweeps through an arc about an arbitrary pivot point - such as the fingertips or the wrist. It seems that WTG, XTG and ATG don't really apply with this cut because by the very nature of the sweep you could go through all three during the stroke.

Can we agree on this?

**hoglahoo** · 08-06-2010, 02:17 PM

I have thought the scythe was simply a guillotine-like cut combined with a subdued pivoting motion. Maybe I will never know what it really is until I pick up a scythe for myself and learn to use it

In the meantime I guess I will just have to keep shaving and discovering more efficient strokes

**Slartibartfast** · 08-06-2010, 02:28 PM

Jump to about 06:40 in this video.

Barber straight razor demonstration / tutorial shave

**MasterRolf** · 08-06-2010, 06:31 PM

To get back to the original post and question:

First, yes it is possible to get bbs with a single WTG pass using a proper scything (or what ever you want to call it) motion. I do it every time I shave.

In truth, I am somewhat amazed at how difficult everyone want to make this. The so called scything motion is in fact a natural stroke for anyone shaving themselves. In fact, all of the other strokes discussed are somewhat forced (at least to me) and are thus more likely to result in a nick or cut.

Consider shaving the side of your face: The natural stroke would be to start at the end of your sideburns and stroke downward. If you do this and let your hand take its natural path, your wrist will tend to rotate and the blade will curve toward your mouth/chin. This is the perfect scything stroke for this part of your face.

Most will consider this a WTG stroke, because most believe that the hair on the side of their face grows downward. Maybe it does for some, but on my face, this part of my beard grows toward my ear. Thus, this stroke starts XTG and gently transitions to ATG as the blade follows the natural path.

Try this with a dull razor or some other safe tool, and you will probably find that in the absence of any attempt to force an artificial motion on your hand, your blade will almost always follow a slightly curved path, i.e. a natural "scything" action.

**pcdad** · 08-06-2010, 07:25 PM

that diagram worries just a tad...

...that instructional video is better..wow...going right to left n visa versa across my chin looks useful..does the tip of the blade go over the chin valleys too?..as my 2 sides differ

pcdad

**markevens** · 08-06-2010, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Jump to about 06:40 in this video.

Barber straight razor demonstration / tutorial shave

**Utopian** · 08-07-2010, 01:06 AM

At the risk of seeming like a petulant prick, I'm going to try again because this is important and is not just a matter of semantics.

I guess I find it extremely frustrating that the point of how a scythe cuts is being missed. It has absolutely nothing to do with an arcing motion, as that arc is canceled out by the concave curvature of the scythe blade, with the net result being that the blade is slicing in what is described in the Wiki as a guillotine stroke at an extremely low angle. THAT is what is being depicted by the barber at time point 6:40 and that is how one slices a tomato. Doing the arcing motion with a straight edge is barely any better than a straight cut.

If you don't believe me, try slicing a tomato by pressing the blade straight down. Next try touching the blade to the tomato and then pressing down just by pivoting at the wrist. THAT is what is being described as a scything stroke and you will find that the tomato doesn't slice any better than the straight down cut. Now, compare that to how you all know that you actually slice a tomato, which is having the blade travel length-ways through the tomato as you push down, in the same manner that a hand saw blade is moved during a cutting stroke. That is how you should be shaving and that is what I consider to be the scything stroke and that is how you get a close comfortable shave.

That is what the barber manuals describe. That is what the barber video shows at 6:40. That is how the old man's scythe blade saws through the grass. That is how you are supposed to shave.

I'm 48. I've picked corn by hand, shocked corn and oats, driven horse teams to take the bundles to the thresher, and I've used a scythe extensively. Isn't there anyone else older than me who has actually used a scythe who can back me up on this?

If you doubt what I'm saying please look at how the old man's blade actually contacts the grass in a low angle slice.

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