Thread: To Scythe or not to scythe...

Dearest Ron, after reviewing the videos(especially of you cutting grass) I agree the motion used to "scythe" is far different than the stroke I use to "arc". I have used and do use both techniques and will continue to do so. Maybe you can build a dictionary for straight razor terminology right after you get done cataloging the barber hones, right after you find a new job, etc, etc. I for one appreciate your fine eye for detail and hereby repent of having misused the term. To any I may have led astray, my apologies. But then again, I have a username to live up to. Have fun guys!

Thanks Ron!

BTWcaution: a legal disclaimer follows) The blade in the video of Ron cutting grass is the opposite design of a smiling blade and contrary to a straight blade, so in reality it seems to me it may be impossible to use a true "scything motion". Also even though the gentleman has a curved blade attached to a straight shaft it looks as if indeed it is cutting the stem like a tomato, but at the same time due to the curvature of the blade an "arc" cannot be avoided as it is not a straight slicing motion, which may be why the blade is arced and not straight. It seems as if a compromise may be in order. Yes Ron I have used a scythe. Anyone care for further discussion?

Originally Posted by Utopian

At the risk of seeming like a petulant prick, I'm going to try again because this is important and is not just a matter of semantics.

I guess I find it extremely frustrating that the point of how a scythe cuts is being missed. It has absolutely nothing to do with an arcing motion, as that arc is canceled out by the concave curvature of the scythe blade, with the net result being that the blade is slicing in what is described in the Wiki as a guillotine stroke at an extremely low angle. THAT is what is being depicted by the barber at time point 6:40 and that is how one slices a tomato. Doing the arcing motion with a straight edge is barely any better than a straight cut.

If you don't believe me, try slicing a tomato by pressing the blade straight down. Next try touching the blade to the tomato and then pressing down just by pivoting at the wrist. THAT is what is being described as a scything stroke and you will find that the tomato doesn't slice any better than the straight down cut. Now, compare that to how you all know that you actually slice a tomato, which is having the blade travel length-ways through the tomato as you push down, in the same manner that a hand saw blade is moved during a cutting stroke. That is how you should be shaving and that is what I consider to be the scything stroke and that is how you get a close comfortable shave.

That is what the barber manuals describe. That is what the barber video shows at 6:40. That is how the old man's scythe blade saws through the grass. That is how you are supposed to shave.

I'm 48. I've picked corn by hand, shocked corn and oats, driven horse teams to take the bundles to the thresher, and I've used a scythe extensively. Isn't there anyone else older than me who has actually used a scythe who can back me up on this?

If you doubt what I'm saying please look at how the old man's blade actually contacts the grass in a low angle slice.

I'll try once more as well. I give you that a scythe may not move in an arcing motion and to call this a scythe cut my not be correct. However, the blade of the razor sure moves in an arc during this cut - at least the way I and many others perform it.

Look at the diagram below. I am sorry but geometry does not agree with you. The blade moves in an arc during the cut. It is just that simple.

So that's the end of my posting on this topic.

First of all I am glad that someone can do one pass and get BBS with cleanup. I can't! I literally have 4 directions that my beard grows when looking at my face and neck.

An example of Scything, for me, is when the blade is moving vertically downward and there is a horizontal movement that is happening at the same time. The blade can be perfectly vertical or at an slight angle, which I prefer, so that when I hit a ridge on my chin I don't slice it. I generally drag the toe just behind the heel. I have been at this for over two years and there are some things that I have to look out for. First of all I do not have any scything motion when I do my first N-S south pass. My beard is so tough that I will hit a hard patch and the downward progression will not be fast enough and I will slice myself. On the second N-S pass I use a scything motion. I use it sparingly throughout my shave because not all parts of my beard need it. During touch-up almost all my movement is scything because I don't have to worry about the blade getting "stuck" and besides my pressure by then is almost nothing.

I am 58 and most of the shaves that I get are BBS and I am loving it and, for me, it is not possible to get a BBS without using a scything motion. Another thing that scything does is that it makes it possible to use a razor that is not quite at peak sharpness and still get good shaves.

Really! Don't try this until you have a lot of experience and are pretty good at honing because a harsh or faulty edge will strongly increase the possibility that you will slice yourself. I have recently found that since I started using J-Nats for honing that scything has become easier. I used to use diamond all the way to a 0.1 micron film and that is one edge will bite you if you don't pay extreme attention to details.

Take Care,
Richard

Originally Posted by riooso

An example of Scything, for me, is when the blade is moving vertically downward and there is a horizontal movement that is happening at the same time.

+1 That is what I consider scything too. The blade is slicing through the whisker rather than shearing it off. If I'm doing a down pass starting at my ear I'm moving the blade down my cheek but also either fore or aft simultaneously depending on the area. An advanced shaving technique AFAIC. Proceed with caution if you haven't tried it.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Now, compare that to how you all know that you actually slice a tomato, which is having the blade travel length-ways through the tomato as you push down, in the same manner that a hand saw blade is moved during a cutting stroke. That is how you should be shaving and that is what I consider to be the scything stroke and that is how you get a close comfortable shave.

+ 1, that is the way. Took me a couple of years to figure out how to do it.

Richard, are you sure it is indeed a "scything" motion?

Originally Posted by Alembic

I'll try once more as well. I give you that a scythe may not move in an arcing motion and to call this a scythe cut my not be correct. However, the blade of the razor sure moves in an arc during this cut - at least the way I and many others perform it.

Look at the diagram below. I am sorry but geometry does not agree with you. The blade moves in an arc during the cut. It is just that simple.

So that's the end of my posting on this topic.

We are at an impasse.

A scythe DOES move in an arcing motion. That is the whole point. That was the miraculous technological advantage of the scythe. A rotational physiological swing translated through a similarly curved blade produced a much more efficient linear cut. The scythe moves in an arc with a blade that also is arced, with the net effect being a linear cut virtually identical to a hand saw cut. With a straight or smiling edge, the path of a scythe cut should form a parallelogram as depicted at time 6:40 in the barber video.

Just try cutting a tomato with what some of you in my opinion incorrectly consider to be a scythe stroke. Touch the blade to the tomato and then only pivot from the wrist to produce the cut. That is not as productive of a cut as a sawing motion which I am saying is the true scything stroke

Edit: Oh, and by the way Kelly, I do not use a Frictionite to sharpen my scythe. A Frictionite is a wonderful barber hone. I would use my Carborundum 198, which is a scythe hone, to sharpen my non-existent scythe.

Also, I am fully aware of your suggestion that I photograph my miniscule collection of barber hones. I frequently think of it, I just haven't gotten around to it. After I cure endometrial cancer, find a new job, get my house ready to sell, get my wife healthy, and get my wife pregnant, I promise that the hones will be at the top of my priority list!

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

Richard, are you sure it is indeed a "scything" motion?

Confused, spelling error. Isn't the verb for scythe...scything? I always have a struggle with this!


Take care,
Richard

There is a very good video on youtube somewhere where a barber is showing a student how to shave a client with a person in the chair. He goes on to explain how to stroke the razor on their face explaining the scything motion and how the razor was designed to use this stroke. He goes on to explain that you should slice with the razor moving downward (Wtg) while moving the razor forward with the toe leading.

Been working for me since and it gives a better shave than just moving straight through the hair.

Originally Posted by riooso

Another thing that scything does is that it makes it possible to use a razor that is not quite at peak sharpness and still get good shaves.

Agreed, and since it maximizes cutting power, you can shave at a lower angle (spine closer to the skin), which also seems to prolong the life of the edge, in my experience.