Role of SRP BST discussion thread cont.

[TOB9595]

With all the posts on this topic, I figure to give my opinion then read the posts. Not the safe and sound way to do things.
Hello, I'm Tom. I'm a newb at Straight shaving.
When I came here to learn what I can about the art/technique of shaving I also got a passion for the work of the razors. The artistry of them. I've been into knives for many years. I looked at the BST as an ignorant babe. All the different models and shapes. Why was this selling for more than that one..Why so many black handles..that sort of stuff.
I was surprised at the comments I saw in the BST by non-seller. There were comments like...paraphrasing...THIS SUCKS. The handles look like they're falling apart. OR
That's a lot of money for this razor...
This critique of a seller's item was totally new and NOVEL to me. I wasn't comfortable with it because I could see me misidentifying or making some other error that we all make and then I'd feel bad.
Since I have been here My mindset has changed. I APPRECIATE the feedback (MOSTLY) that I see folk have about a seller's item. Good questions and very educational. Most have been respectful.
The post that started this all I was following just for educational purposes and then it came to light the facts.

THANK you to who posted the facts about this BST. I felt a sense of relief that if someone knew that there were concerns OR should be concerns about a BST it was brought to light.
Not just buds or promoters of some BST but a real honest "WHOA guys. Here's what I know"
That was VERY cool.
I don't see new rules doing anything but getting in the way..or more granmdfathering posts..Mods don't need more work or follow up on a post.

Keep BST bunnies out of BST and keep doing what you (hopefully ...we...someday) are doing. Keeping BST above board.
I think anyone should be able to ask any price they wish..I think anyone should be able to say "too much" and a discussion starts.
If someone says"too much" they should be able to back it up and not be doing it out of jealousy or revenge.
Keep open posting like I see and ALL IS GTG. We don't need to change anything today..
Best of intentions tho maybe not expressed well.

[thebigspendur]

I think that often when you start to employ rules to control a small number of users it winds up hurting many more people than first intended like the bad marksman who can't hit his own target buts hits everyone else's. I would think most here know when someone is trying to rip someone else off and know when certain members just post on the BST Forum to sell things and will be wary of those people.

Unfortunately if you are going to have a BST Forum thats just the nature of the beast and you will have to accept the fact there will be abuses. Hopefully the mods will step in before things get out of hand and for small issues I would leave it up to the members.

[RMC_SS_LDO]

Just because opinions were solicited, I'll chime in

I would be hesitant to place time or post count restrictions on posting in BST just because it would discourage noobies from requesting stuff or asking questions. I know that is a small concern but I'd think it is valid.

You can't have it both ways. Some may have gotten upset about the reactions in the "other" post, but I think the reactions illustrate why the BST works. It is self-policing as long as moderators and other members have the stones to call BS when required.


I am quoting what I said in the "other" thread because I think it bears repeating:

One reason I look at the B/S/T is because the items I expect to find are generally more quality items, posted by individuals that know what they have. More importantly, the sellers are not posting to make a quick buck (that's what eBay is for) but to add value to the community. I will be posting items here that I will sell at a fair price that I have invested more time than money in. Yes, I intend to make back what I have in it financially, but the offerings will be to try to further the community and fund items that will further support razor restoration. My personal goal is to help the new and expand offerings for the not-so-new.

The allure of SRP and in particular the B/S/T section for me personally is that it is thought to be populated by gentlemen that conduct themselves as such. What Tanamack posted for sale, while not illegal or immoral in any way, does not seem to support the spirit of the site as a whole as I see it. It was picked up for a song then flipped with zero investment to better the item, nor did it or provide a really good value (relative to the original cost) to the members here. I am a huge supporter of a free economy- I wear a uniform every day to defend such ideals, but this illustrates a growing concern I have had about the spirit of this section of the forum (B/S/T).



Some may misinterpret the reactions of some of the members as being sort-of snobbish (for some reason), but I see it as keeping things more basic and protecting the integrity of this site. That's not intended to sound like I'm pontificating, just keeping it real.

The BST needs to be a place for enthusiasts not profiteers. IMHO self-policing with clear guidelines are the best answer. As long as folks understand the rules, they have no reason to get a case of the red-ass if/when others call them on something that seems questionable.

I generally sign a post with "v/r". That's for a reason- it represents "Very respectfully" and I put it there because I mean it. If others post with the same spirit (which I think is the core of this discussion- respect and spirit), there should be no issues.

Thanks....


v/r

Allen

[gugi]

I'm not to thrilled with the new "thank you" addition and I have not yet seen any explanation for them (I haven't looked for it), but it smacks a bit of a popularity contest to me.

It's simpler than this - take a look at the top right corner "Casino" - where do you think all this fake money to spend comes from

* While a $200 wapi might seem obscene to me it does not to others.

There's one for $250, right now It looks great but there are other razors I need first...

OK, now that I've taken care of the jokes, because of the posts before mine, I don't think I'll say anything new.

Certainly lots of red tape doesn't seem like a good solution. I'm not sure what's exactly the problem that needs to be solved, though. I've seen razor prices go up on ebay esp. over the last 6 months, but I'm not sure that the prices are the problem. When I joined newbie-targeted shave-ready razors used to cost 20 for a wapi and 30-40 for a restored vintage. The price of the new wapis is up by $6 since then. The prices of restoration projects have gone up by no more than $10-$20. Everybody can see the prices on B/S/T and can decide if they are commensurate or not.

The prices on B/S/T are higher than ebay and the reason is that we have more expertise than the sellers on ebay and theoretically pick only the best (quality/value/etc.). Then there may be also a restoration part and perhaps honing involved and most people would like some compensation for their time and effort (although there are many cases esp. of older members trying to help new ones that are a notable exception).

I don't have any problem with people making any profit they want to make. What I have problem with is sellers who are trying to piggyback on the perceived 'experience' of SRP to get as much money as they can. I've seen examples of this starting probably 3 months ago. The people who fall for this are newbies who do not know better. This is annoying to me not because of the profit the seller makes, but because after I've taken the time and effort to help a newbie to a successful start I hate it to be ruined by a seller that is not interested at all in the hobby, only in his checkbook.

We used to recommend to newbies to stay away from ebay and instead pay the higher prices at b/s/t, but I do not feel comfortable doing this anymore. The best I can do is tell a newbie to contact such and such person who may have a razor for them, because I know that person will provide them properly honed razor at a fair price (and often at a steal). I do not take people's dignity lightly and I have avoided posting embarassing comments in the FS threads, on few occassions I've warned a buyer that the razor may not be what they want to start with. When I've posted questions I try to be courteous and neutral.

As one of the members said, when starting, he appreciated things being commented on publicly. Perhaps all we need is to review what a gentlemanly conduct is. I'd like to be able to comment in threads and give my opinion on items being offered, but perhaps if you have serious concerns you should first bring them up with the seller in a PM. A clearer guidelines would be helpful. My understanding is that the current ones are 'If you can't say a positive thing, don't comment'.

As far as what constitutes treating B/S/T as a no-fee ebay, I guess no rule can capture that and if somebody things a seller is abusing the forum, they can contact the mods who can certainly make a decision.

[Don]

A couple quick points.
1.We are thankful for all your thoughts
2.The BST is NOT a storefront
3.No offense to anyone but just long time membership does not mean you can run a business in the BST
4. We are a forum not a selling site the BST is for members to sell and trade and buy in a Gentleman's fashion. There is no room for comments on price or quality. If the buyer and seller are happy that is all that matters.
5. There will be adjustments maybe minor maybe major and all your feedback will be used.
Thanks guys for taking the time to give feedback to better the site
Don

[CactusBob]

Reading these posts I figured to keep quiet since I am very new to this site and straights in general. As my wife tells me I very seldom keep quiet and sometimes somebody new can come up with something so these are my thoughts. First to address a couple things Don said above
Soliciting inputs from the members and using those in the decision process are a great thing. It helps keep the board running according to the majority of members wishes.
Saying B/S/T is not a storefront I disagree with. It may be more like your local swap meet than the supermarket, but Buy/Sell/Trade says you are conducting business. The difference to me is that the folks in B/S/T are not doing this as their profession, Razor restoration, custom razor creators do this as a a hobby, as well as the ones that may have too many and just want to get rid of some. If its a persons or businesses lively hood then that should be in the vendor site. I would not expect vintage blades to sell razors in B/S/T.
From a newbie perspective the comments are a help. Just as in the auction area you talk about the sales on ebay, the comments in B/S/T help me make an informed decision. Some razors are better for a newbie than others, and the comments from the "old hands" can help us make an informed decision that will help us stick around straight shaving longer.
A lot of what I see written on this site talks about "Gentlemanly behavior" when a decision on what to do with B/S/T is made hopefully the mods will ask if the proposed rules enhance or detract from Gentlemanly behavior.

To help protect newbies in B/S/T, which I think i read once or twice above, how about putting a description template at the top of each sale thread. Something like

Mfg: George Wostenholm
Model: IXL
Size: 5/8
Defects: pitting on spine, tarnish on blade, scales broke in half
Shave ready: No
I Have shaved with this razor: No
Price:$
After this the seller can put in whatever he wants for a description
ie. this razor was carried by Marshall Tucker when he crossed the RIO Grande ahead of Montezumas troops. The handle broke when it stopped the bullet aimed for the southward facing portion of his northward moving anatomy. This blade has been credited with stopping the unheard of Polish-American war

As a newbie this gives me the most important info right up front instead of rereading the post to make sure if I picked out every thing. If I'm looking for shave ready razor I would move on to the next.
Sometimes with more than one razor I have to go back and forth to make sure I can match the parts of the description to each photo.
Sorry for the long ramble

Bob

[adickerson0]

I completely agree with the boards mission on keeping things civil and classy. Reputation is important but all the talk about post count and account age misses focusing on the PRODUCT.

Ebay is full of bad pictures and junk being sold by people who know nothing about what they are selling. If the SRP community wants to raise the standard for products sold, to me, the easiest solution would be to set standards on the product/description. The SRP community can easily police itself if there were strict guidelines for posting in the BST section.

I offer this suggestion, listing a razor in the BST should require clear pictures of both sides of the blade. These 2 pictures should be fairly simple for anyone with a digital camera. However the 2 simple pictures tell the buyer just about everything they need to know about the razors condition. Pitting, rust, spine thickness, uneven honing, finish, edge condition are all easy to spot with good pictures.

Let the razor speak for itself. If the seller is making unfair claims, pictures will let everyone see the seller is questionable. At that point the Mods deal with liars and cheats as they see fit..... Shave his belly with a rusty razor

[Mike_ratliff]

All good points, Time restrictions are probably the best option to prevent someone from joining just to make a buck, but that won't stop the established members from crossing the line either intentionally or accidentally.

selling in the B/S/T is not a right, just as accessing the forums is not a right. It's something that we have policed ourselves in the past, but does have room for improvement.

My suggestion would be a confidential warning or penalty system where moderators can warn and restrict an individuals rights to access B/S/T.
A member would be "warned" by a moderator for violating the spirit of the forum. This Warning would automatically prevent the member from viewing, or listing anything in B/S/T for 24 hours. each additional warning would automatically quadruple the time that B/S/T is unavailable to that member. Simply put if you violate the terms, you lose access to that specific area.
By restricting access to B/S/T they can't buy sell or trade anything here... The threat of this alone would keep most people in line. Those who still don't learn would completely lose access, so would go elsewhere.

This could even be streamlined for the moderators so it's a matter of clicking a Warning button, and the member would recieve a message that

"Your post violated the spirit of the B/S/T forum, and you have been warned by __moderator___. you will not be allowed access to BST for __ hours. If you wish to Appeal this you may contact __moderator___ and your case will be reviewed."

The fact that the person was warned may be implied by the lack of their presence in the BST forum, but would not be made public in any other way. By increasing the time they can't access BST, they would quickly learn to behave, or they would end up banning themselves permanently. also if the member is posting in the rest of the forums, and really contributing to the community, maybe there can be a way for moderators to adjust, remove, or reduce the restriction.

first warning 1 day
2nd warning 4 days
3rd warning 16 days
4th warning 2 months
5th warning 8 months
6th warning would be 2.7 years, but if you need 6 warnings, you aren't going to learn.

If they don't learn by the 2nd warning, there's something wrong with them...

Heck you could even use a multiple of ten instead of four...
first warning 1 day
2nd warning 10 days
3rd warning 100 days (3+ months)
4th warning 1,000 days (2.7 years)
5th warning 10,000 days (27.4 years or pretty much forever)

The advantage of restricting just BST instead of the entire forum is peer pressure. Nobody is going to want to have to tell their peers that they can't access BST.

[gugi]

The advantage of restricting just BST instead of the entire forum is peer pressure. Nobody is going to want to have to tell their peers that they can't access BST.

"yeah, man, can you go get me a razor on b/s/t? i'll give you 5 bucks! come on, man, i really need it badly..."

[poona]

Some of the prices of razors are going crazy.

Don't get me wrong, there are lots of folk selling razors at great prices and if it's kept this way, BST will blossom.

However as said before, if the buyer and seller agree on this high price then so be it. It's their prerogative.