Role of SRP BST discussion thread cont.

[Tony Miller]

<<< Saying B/S/T is not a storefront I disagree with. It may be more like your local swap meet than the supermarket, but Buy/Sell/Trade says you are conducting business. The difference to me is that the folks in B/S/T are not doing this as their profession, Razor restoration, custom razor creators do this as a a hobby, as well as the ones that may have too many and just want to get rid of some. If its a persons or businesses lively hood then that should be in the vendor site. I would not expect vintage blades to sell razors in B/S/T.>>>

This is really what much of the discussion is about. Where is that line...hobbyist or dealer. If you come here just to sell, or buy things just to sell, you are a Vendor and need to follow vendor rules. if you are a "regular" member....an active shaver, may or may not have posts to contribute, buy your equipment to use, BUT, have some leftovers or things you don't want any more and want to sell them B/S/T is the place for you. The quantity is hard to set a limit on.

Someone mentioned Traveller earlier because of his recent flurry of sales. He is a guy known to most of us as a collector and user. He had reasons he wanted to sell a large amount of his collection over a short period but that does not make him a dealer in my opinion. He is not a guy posting daily to the group but when he has something to contribute he makes posts. Some proposed limitations would not really be fair to members like Gary.

A guy new to the group, selling as many razors in a short time would sure look like a dealer to me. Membership time would carry more weight to me in who should sell than number posts or limiting how many can be sold in a week. It is hard to decide who is dealer, who is not though as the active hobbiest/semi-dealer is a fine line. If you have a website to sell stuff you are a dealer...SRP, though should not act as your storefront.

We have had members stumble on a great find and offer up part of it to the group...hones, razor sets, etc..... Yes, they bought to resell these but it's a one time deal, from an established member. To me, B/S/T would be fine, that is not being a dealer. Do it every week or month...yep, your a dealer


I am a vendor here and I pay to run a banner here. If I want to promote or sell something related to my strop busines I do it via the Vendor section, not B/S/T, not classifieds. I am also a hobbyist and straight user, when I thin out personal items every once in a while that I bought to use myself I do it via B/S/T.

I think for the most part things have been going smoothly in B/S/T and too many restrictions may give a bad feel to it. A sticky with guidelines is a good idea, maybe worded to discourage "dealers" from that area.

Not sure if we will find a solution here but it is good meember get to kick things around.

Tony

[ZiggyDeath]

However as said before, if the buyer and seller agree on this high price then so be it. It's their prerogative.

I agree, however one should be aware of the facts and what the item is generally worth. It's one thing to say "Hey this item is really only worth about 20 bucks but I'll be willing to drop 40 on it from a fellow member/I want it really badly and now" Versus "I think it's a good deal because it's from a fellow member".

To take example from B&B: recently TWO "Very good to Excellent" condition Gillette Slims were sold for 65$ because they were marked as MINT. Firstly, they were NOT mint, secondly the buyers were newbies and unaware of the razors' true conditions. Any veteran DE shaver would have immediately noticed that they were in fact not mint. Now while the market price for older fashioned shaving IN GENERAL has gone up, however those particular razors in their condition would not have fetched more than maybe 50$ on the bay. A Mint or NOS Slim can easily go for over 100$.

Is that fair to the newbies? GRANTED, they were satisfied with their transactions but the fact remains that outsiders would view this as taking advantage of other members. The seller offered refunds, etc, which is the gentlemanly thing to do. Bottom line everyone was happy in the end.

I don't post here much, mostly because I dislike adding meaningless banter or I cannot repeat/give better advice. And frankly, doing the +1 without any addition is a waste of time and other readers. I won't claim that I am without these faults but I try to avoid them. But when I frequent the BST I am expecting not to get screwed. But then again whenever I make a transaction I review the sellers posting history and look to see if they have a history on the other major shaving forums.

Regarding shotgun rules. While rules may seem elitest or cause problems, the growing population may require them. In small groups, self-regulation may work well because word travels fast and you're looking out for each other. The fact is, with a larger group that mindset slowly loses coherency. I mean I've already seen several WTS 100x Derby Blades for 20$. How is that a deal when you can buy new from an authorized reseller for 16? But no one, myself included, has the guts and balls to say "Hey, your pricing is out of line" for fear of looking ungentlemanly.

Sorry for going off track. I find that I've simply vented my frustration regarding uninformed sellers and stupid things I've seen on the BST over different forums lately.

Z

[Mike_ratliff]

I setup as a vendor because my Wapi thread got out of control...
It's still nice to be able to list a razor here when I find something really nice, or finish a restoration project.
But if I do list it here I do so at a lower price than I would if it were on my site.

If Robert Williams were to list a few of his customs here, I don't think anybody would bat an eye... Or Zowada, or Chandler, or Livi... because it would be a valuable contribution to the community.
I think the line was crossed by the individual's desire to do a quick turnaround without any improvements to the razor.

However even this is not completely unprecedented... If I find a NOS Dorko in an antique shop for $6, I'm not going to sell it for $6, or even $36.

I think a iron clad rule of any kind will miss the point of enforcing the spirit of this forum.
That leaves self policing, or having a dedicated full time crew of moderators to watch BST...

We will support any decision or action the moderators and managers decide to implement here...
I just hope the changes are not too invasive... a guideline that allows moderators to censure individuals who violate, rather than a rule that will limit the group as a whole...

Also I Thank the moderators for allowing us to have a voice in this discussion. This is another example of how this group is different than any other I've been to.
We're doing a good thing here, I understand and appreciate your interest in keeping it on the right track.

[Tony Miller]

<<<< If Robert Williams were to list a few of his customs here, I don't think anybody would bat an eye... Or Zowada, or Chandler, or Livi... because it would be a valuable contribution to the community. >>>>

Mike,
This is a good example of why rules will never fit every case. These guys, while "in business" still produce on a hobbyist level and I would not see any issue with their wares in B/S/T to some extent. Zowada and Williams do have dealers selling their work but on a very limited basis. Joe I think is only selling directly. Maestro has an established dealer network in many countries so probably crosses the line of vendor.

Your Wapi razors started small and when you decided to go large you steped up on your own to the next level. I started the same way. Three years ago making a strop or two a week I used B/S/T but once I set up a real business I made a separation between personal stuff and for profit stuff. This is still not my full time professsion but operates like it so follows the same rules. Others may be full time knifemakers but only do a razor or two once in a while so to our market anyway, they are more like hobbyists.

Tony

[Mike_ratliff]

I didn't want to use my Wapis, as an example, because I felt they crossed the line... I thought when I asked if there was interest I might get 10 or 12 people interested... I've sold close to 100 Wapis since then.
But once the order was filled, I went vendor, so as to keep from turning BST into a free for all...

I still list occasionally on BST, it's nice when I find a small treasure to share it. or if I want to sell from my private collection.

I think the issue here is that the actions of certain individuals has violated or violates the trust, and ethics of this forum. and no rule can force someone to have ethics...

I am glad the decision for change is not on my shoulders.

[justchillin]

I'd like to chime in on a transaction I experienced when I first started on SRP. I never bought it up with the members cause it eventually worked itself out.

A seller that had like 350 post counts and was a member since Jan 2007 was selling three razors. He'd sold a few before (Maestro and a robert williams) and no complaints were written so I figured he wasn't a scam artist. The picture was so so and he described the razors as three beautiful razors. Not Shave Ready but suggested a light honing.

I paid for all three razors and asked him to send it to Lynn to be honed. Lynn got them and I asked Lynn his honest opinion. Lynn said the razors were in so so condition. There was rust around the pivot areas and some pitting on the blades. This was not mentioned in the ad and it wasn't evident in the picture. Essentially, I overpaid. I was not happy. I asked Lynn to proceed with the honing since I've already paid for em, I'll use them. Lynn was kind enough to offer his expert opinion if I needed it when corresponding with the seller. Lynn honed the razors but he said they definitely needed more than a light honing. To the seller's defense, Lynn did say that he's corresponded with the seller before and he was always upfront with him.

I was finally able to contact the seller after several PM's and he explained to me that he was going through some personal problems. I explained to him the situation with the honing and the undisclosed rust spots pitting and he refunded some of the honing costs to me.

After that situation, it left a bad taste in my mouth for buying from BST, mainly because I expected full disclosure. But because of the excellent honing from Lynn I now have three so so looking razors that are excellent shavers!! So it didn't turn out that bad afterall.

I'm more concerned with accountability than price. Case in point, I purchased a razor from a member here end of last year. It's an excellent shaver. I wanted to find out more info about it cause it didn't have any origin markings. I plugged in google what was on the razor and I found that very razor on ebay. So I know exactly what the seller paid for it. But I didn't care because for the price I paid, the seller has taken the razor back twice to repin and retighten. He stood by his work and I'm very thankful for it. So he deserves every cent.


I guess the point I'm making is that if you sell on BST,regardless of the selling price you need to stand by your stuff. I don't want to have to worry bout my transaction. If I am willing to pay the asking price, then that's the price for me.

[Kenrup]

I am going to chime it at this point. I'm not concerned that there might a flurry of offerings from one person from time to time. Some guys on the forum had a shot at some awesome razors and knew that the seller was above reproach. A while ago I mentioned to a moderator that I thought a minimum time and posting was might be a good idea. I agreed with the moderator's response that the forum was trying to "in the spirit of self-policing" limit the rules. I do feel that doubts or comments should be voiced to the seller in a PM. I also applaud Mike in going vendor when his service for Wapis skyrocketed. I will eventually become a vendor but I'm not interested in giving up my day job just yet. I enjoy the camaraderie and the exchange of ideas and philosophies. I also support any decision that the moderators make concerning this board.

[Don]

Guys everyone has posted different ways of looking at this and all are right in that way. We as Admin need to look at it from a holistic view point. And the rules would be judged by the Moderators if someone comes on and list a bunch of there razors to raise some cash for a Livi or Chandler cool. The Razor market is booming and people are making a lot of money on it, myself included I have so many razors to list on eBay right now it is not even funny. I just have not had the time I could easily throw them in the BST much quicker and sell them all. But do not because that would be a business move. Not meant for the BST. If someone as a Restoration business and does a great job good for them and us. I just does not belong in the BST. We do not want to stop this we are also looking at ways they can still do this just not in the BST. We do want what is best for all but will always look at the long term impact to SRP first. Mikes story is a great example said he would do a few no its over a 100 he made it a business. Good for him and us. He is still doing well with them just not in the BST. The BST must be a friendly place for all members to sell trade and buy to enrich their passion and not be a Business Center. I will use the example of the razor makers. they throw one or two up special for us YOWZA . That decide the BST now becomes the way the do there business that would not be wanted in the BST. A Ad in the Vendors section giving discount to members now that is where it would belong.
Members need to look at the BST as hobbyist exchanging goods.
When they look at the Vendor Section it is still good stuff but they know people their are making profits any running a business. I would love to see more post from vendors in that section I feel it is great for the members to know they are our trusted Vendors.

Does that make sense?

[coachmike]

All i can say is , I LOVE THIS PLACE. It is the best thing to happen to me since I first thought of straight shaving years ago. I came in here and INSTINTLY found a home and a comfort level that gave me the knowledge and courage to begin this wonderful hobby. I love to shave since i started with a straight , it's not a burden the way it used to be for me. Watching all that has happened here and what lead to this thread makes me feel sad at what is happening to MY safe haven. I know this forum will be even better then ever after all this, and I know that this all started by well meaning members that were looking out for guys like me. That being said, Don I agree 100% with what you posted and feelings like those are what has made this place what it is and will continue to be. Forget the posts count thing and let the membership(older more experienced guys of course) police things here with the guidence of the moderators, which already do a great job. Just my 0.02 for all it's worth. Sorry for the long post from a new guy.

[Tanamack]

Just an idea, I didn't see it anywhere so if it was already mentioned please disregard.
On the topic of razor condition, re; selling razors to rookies who might be turned off by a straight that needs work , is it possible or plausible to start each b/s/t "straight razor for sale" with something like " recommended for the restorer only" or " not recommended for new straight users" or even "ready to shave, newbies welcome"
Just a thought