Thread: Identifying a convex bevel caused by extensive pasted stropping

Originally Posted by Kefka

Ah ok now I do of course see the angle difference, was just hard to spot without the guide lines! Thank you for posting this it's very interesting. I was under the impression that the coticule edge would be just as straight as an edge off a synthetic hone as when you go through the dilution stages you get less and less slurry dulling until you finally arrive at water only and you polish the edge out to its max keenness limit. May this is incorrect though I am open to correction!

You are correct that dilution removes convexity, but I am making the assumption that if you use CrOx on your Coticule edge you are not achieving HHT4 off the stone like Bart does.
I look for HHT 2/3 off the stone and strop to HHT4, and there is microconvexity in that edge. This is why Unicot is so effective; the tape compensates for the microconvexity to bring the apex in contact with the stone.

Originally Posted by rolodave

Just for clarification, is the "foil" a micro version of the "wire" you can get honing knives?

Dave

Yes, although I tend to use the term "burr" rather than "wire" for what is done with knives and chisels.
You can find more details here:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ml#post1260366
http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...ml#post1170630

A disclaimer up front: I don't have access to a SEM or high power magnification, don't use trigonometry formulas to calculate bevel angles or have the time to conduct tightly controlled scientific experiments while shaving and honing. What I do have is well over 5 years experience using and maintaining straight razors. Here's a few observations from me:

1. I've found the best most comfortable shaves happen once the edge has "settled in", meaning after a few shaves and stropping on linen/leather only.

2. When you use pastes you're out of the realm of stropping and into the realm of honing. I respect Glen's experiments and opinion and I'm not calling the shaving comfort factor into question. But when this question comes up I do question the amount of metal being removed by using pastes every shave. If you use the same razor every day and strop on pastes 40 times every shave I guarantee you'll see some metal removed over 365 days. It might seem negligible but give it years or decades and the lifespan of that razor will be reduced.

3. With experience and proper stropping the use of paste daily becomes unnecessary. When I first started I read posts from senior members saying that they hadn't touched up a razor in months or even years. I flat out didn't believe that you could go more than a week without doing a paste or hone touch up. And now? I'm one of those guys that has several razors that haven't been touched up for years, they've been maintained with nothing else than linen/leather stropping and are still shaving close and comfortably. Yes it takes several years to get to this point and it happens gradually but it is possible.

When I first came on the scene the mantra here was LESS IS MORE, which is Lynn's saying and was previously quoted by Glen in this thread. But lately it seems that guys are starting to think the opposite is true, that More is Less maintenance. This might appear to be true in the short term, but by putting more wear and tear on your razor than necessary you're actually reducing the life of your blade while not improving your stropping skills....

I'm sorry if I come across as preachy as that's not my intent, just my 2 cents. But at the end of the day these are your razors guys, and if you feel what you're doing is the best then keep on keepin' on.

Originally Posted by Ryan82

A disclaimer up front: I don't have access to a SEM or high power magnification, don't use trigonometry formulas to calculate bevel angles or have the time to conduct tightly controlled scientific experiments while shaving and honing. What I do have is well over 5 years experience using and maintaining straight razors. Here's a few observations from me:

1. I've found the best most comfortable shaves happen once the edge has "settled in", meaning after a few shaves and stropping on linen/leather only.

2. When you use pastes you're out of the realm of stropping and into the realm of honing. I respect Glen's experiments and opinion and I'm not calling the shaving comfort factor into question. But when this question comes up I do question the amount of metal being removed by using pastes every shave. If you use the same razor every day and strop on pastes 40 times every shave I guarantee you'll see some metal removed over 365 days. It might seem negligible but give it years or decades and the lifespan of that razor will be reduced.

3. With experience and proper stropping the use of paste daily becomes unnecessary. When I first started I read posts from senior members saying that they hadn't touched up a razor in months or even years. I flat out didn't believe that you could go more than a week without doing a paste or hone touch up. And now? I'm one of those guys that has several razors that haven't been touched up for years, they've been maintained with nothing else than linen/leather stropping and are still shaving close and comfortably. Yes it takes several years to get to this point and it happens gradually but it is possible.

When I first came on the scene the mantra here was LESS IS MORE, which is Lynn's saying and was previously quoted by Glen in this thread. But lately it seems that guys are starting to think the opposite is true, that More is Less maintenance. This might appear to be true in the short term, but by putting more wear and tear on your razor than necessary you're actually reducing the life of your blade while not improving your stropping skills....

I'm sorry if I come across as preachy as that's not my intent, just my 2 cents. But at the end of the day these are your razors guys, and if you feel what you're doing is the best then keep on keepin' on.

Those are great and valid observations. I am sure you are correct in that there will be some steel lost over the years but between my $70 dovo and my Gold Dollar that was....well.... A lot less,Hahaha, I am ok with purchasing new razors down the road. Especially since I only have 2. Less is more and I am sure the greats here along with yourself have very valid experience. I don't think anyone here is trying to offend or go against sound advice. I think people are just having fun experimenting. All of this can add to the knowledge base here too. Lastly, I don't think you are "preaching" but rather trying to offer your own experience and I, for one, appreciate it. Thanks.

The one question that I would have if I had to touch up on a pasted strop every shave would be the integrity of the steel in the blade etc.

I guess if it works for you then have at it...to each their own. But if I had to run one of my Custom blades over a pasted strop each shave then I would wonder what I paid so many of my hard earned dollars for

Granted, I have 20 some razors in my rotation, but it's been well over 3yrs since I've had to take one of them to a hone or paddle for a touchup. Even then it was only 10 laps on CroOx, otherwise it's just plain linen and leather before each shave

Originally Posted by Catrentshaving

The one question that I would have if I had to touch up on a pasted strop every shave would be the integrity of the steel in the blade etc.

I guess if it works for you then have at it...to each their own. But if I had to run one of my Custom blades over a pasted strop each shave then I would wonder what I paid so many of my hard earned dollars for

Granted, I have 20 some razors in my rotation, but it's been well over 3yrs since I've had to take one of them to a hone or paddle for a touchup. Even then it was only 10 laps on CroOx, otherwise it's just plain linen and leather before each shave

Can't speak for anyone else but I am doing it as an experiment. Just for the fun of it and so far it has done no damage and seems to actually have gotten smoother and I also strop afterwards. Just my 2¢ of whats workin'

Originally Posted by fuzzychops

You are correct that dilution removes convexity, but I am making the assumption that if you use CrOx on your Coticule edge you are not achieving HHT4 off the stone like Bart does.
I look for HHT 2/3 off the stone and strop to HHT4, and there is microconvexity in that edge. This is why Unicot is so effective; the tape compensates for the microconvexity to bring the apex in contact with the stone.

When I use crox it will be after about 6 shaves of stropping 40 linen 60 leather before each one. On a well honed razor I would not even do many laps, maybe 10. Unfortunately the razor is not always well honed as I may have settled for HHT 2/3 off the coticule but honestly I mostly aim for HHT 4 and usually get there. I have never attained HHT -5 except for the toe section of one razor though lol So the few laps would usually bring it back up to where it was for another few shaves but then I find after doing it 2 or 3 times it gets a bit more harsh. This effect could of course also be due to user error or other various factors so I think further testing and experience would be in order before I make my mind up about it. I learn something new about honing/shaving/stropping every day I believe so there is much room changing views!

I always aim for the Shave Test Level 1 (ST-1)

I feel like I have stepped into the middle of an argument here.

Personally, I use 0.25 diamond and 0.1 CBN to add a tiny bit of convexity to razors that I have honed on Shaptons and/or the Gokumyo 20k and I find this improves the keenness and longevity . I find I can touch this up once or twice with the 0.25 diamond before I need to narrow the bevel a bit by dropping to the Shapton 8k/16k. To me, this is consistent with the "less is more" concept since I only use paste on a good edge to make it better, never on a poor edge to try to make it good. Also, I find 0.5 micron diamond too aggressive. FYI, my other razors are Coticule honed, always Unicot, never pasted and touched up on the Coticule.

That said, I would like to think I have shown that stropping on submicron abrasive only abrades the last few microns of the edge. The key point is that the equilibrium "shape" is produce fairly quickly and after that, very little steel is removed. In other words, less is already alot and more is not much more. My only reason for entering this thread was to offer an explanation for the OP's observations and Glen's earlier experiment.

Originally Posted by Catrentshaving

I always aim for the Shave Test Level 1 (ST-1)

Absolutely I have definitely been in situations where the HHT will not necessarily have a direct correlation with the shave quality so it is in the end the ultimate test.

Having said that, I have never come across a razor that shaved well without passing the HHT at some level. I know HHT is subjective and my HHT 2 could be your HHT 3 but I use the same hair source every time ensuring that the HHT has meaning for me and tells me whether the razor has a chance at not pulling my beard out