Thread: Identifying a convex bevel caused by extensive pasted stropping

I just strop with linen/leather before (20/50) and 10/10 after and use CrOx at the first sign of edge degradation, but this thread has got me interested in maybe pasting a strop and giving it try every few shaves.

Originally Posted by fuzzychops

I feel like I have stepped into the middle of an argument here.

Personally, I use 0.25 diamond and 0.1 CBN to add a tiny bit of convexity to razors that I have honed on Shaptons and/or the Gokumyo 20k and I find this improves the keenness and longevity . I find I can touch this up once or twice with the 0.25 diamond before I need to narrow the bevel a bit by dropping to the Shapton 8k/16k. To me, this is consistent with the "less is more" concept since I only use paste on a good edge to make it better, never on a poor edge to try to make it good. Also, I find 0.5 micron diamond too aggressive. FYI, my other razors are Coticule honed, always Unicot, never pasted and touched up on the Coticule.

That said, I would like to think I have shown that stropping on submicron abrasive only abrades the last few microns of the edge. The key point is that the equilibrium "shape" is produce fairly quickly and after that, very little steel is removed. In other words, less is already alot and more is not much more. My only reason for entering this thread was to offer an explanation for the OP's observations and Glen's earlier experiment.

If there is an argument taking place then I have not noticed

I find this thread very interesting and I think your pics are astounding and invaluable to the discussion so thank you for sharing them. I have a great interest in the scientific side of everything and that is why I was drawn to this discussion.

Originally Posted by rodb

I just strop with linen/leather before (20/50) and 10/10 after and use CrOx at the first sign of edge degradation, but this thread has got me interested in maybe pasting a strop and giving it try every few shaves.

Yeah I think I will give that a try on one of my razors as well just to see what happens!

It's quite hard to get hht 5 off anything but adamantium blades and nano pastes on silk scarves wafted across the edge by a northerly gust off migratory swallow wings during the solstice.

I get good shaves off all my razors, but they only get honed once every year or so, and I don't own or use pastes. You do not need to paste your blades to get good shaves.

However, pastes are cheap and easy and there's certainly nothing wrong with that, particularly when you consider the prices of a complete stone set, and of some the finishers out there.

I don't know if there's any long term effect of daily pasting. I suspect there's decreasing returns as you abrade away the edge and have to start dealing with larger distances, but this also eventually happens with the more traditional approach. For me the question would be about rate.

James

Originally Posted by Jimbo

It's quite hard to get hht 5 off anything but adamantium blades and nano pastes on silk scarves wafted across the edge by a northerly gust off migratory swallow wings during the solstice.

I get good shaves off all my razors, but they only get honed once every year or so, and I don't own or use pastes. You do not need to paste your blades to get good shaves.

However, pastes are cheap and easy and there's certainly nothing wrong with that, particularly when you consider the prices of a complete stone set, and of some the finishers out there.

I don't know if there's any long term effect of daily pasting. I suspect there's decreasing returns as you abrade away the edge and have to start dealing with larger distances, but this also eventually happens with the more traditional approach. For me the question would be about rate.

James

LOL nice description!

Well I think I am definitely not at a level where I could get by with just plain stropping every day for a year but I hope I can get there because the idea of any straight razor being a consumable item actually horrifies me!!

I would also be interested to know which method removes the most steel, a touch up on a hone every few shaves, or just pasting either every shave or every couple of shaves.

Originally Posted by Catrentshaving

I always aim for the Shave Test Level 1 (ST-1)

So many things in this hobby are subjective (maybe everything). I see people being scolded for using terms such as buttery smooth or HHT-4 (not saying that's going in here). I don't know why as long as everyone understands that it is subjective to THEM. The HHT for one person may not be true for another. What I am learning is that this is true of shave tests too. What one considers smooth and sharp another calls harsh and dull since it is all relative to experience, contours of the face, beard thickness, technique, ect. An edge that I think is the best ever maybe very harsh down the road after some more experience and harsh to those more experienced and awesome to those who have never had a sharp edge.

Now, if my shave test is calibrated to what I like I can get consistent results using it. Same with a HHT at whatever level. It is all subjective and relevant to the individual at that point in time (see what I did there Glenn?). How do you quantify such things? But when someone says it passed such and such a test whether it's a smooth shave on a shave test or a HHT-5 using a 0-5 scale I know that it is great shave FOR THEM at that point in time (did it again). I think as long as everyone understands that it's all subjective you get the point. Otherwise you can't talk about such things at all. Smooth for you is not always smooth for me but I know you are talking about your edge on your face or your HHT results on your razor. You tell me it passed a shave test for you but what does that mean to me? Nothing except it is a smooth shave for you which is exactly what you are trying to convey.

I am not trying to offend anyone as I appreciate EVERYONES opinion I just think it's time to stop swinging purses gentlemen. YMMV (thought I would throw that in there )

Originally Posted by Steel

So many things in this hobby are subjective (maybe everything). I see people being scolded for using terms such as buttery smooth or HHT-4 (not saying that's going in here). I don't know why as long as everyone understands that it is subjective to THEM. The HHT for one person may not be true for another. What I am learning is that this is true of shave tests too. What one considers smooth and sharp another calls harsh and dull since it is all relative to experience, contours of the face, beard thickness, technique, ect. An edge that I think is the best ever maybe very harsh down the road after some more experience and harsh to those more experienced and awesome to those who have never had a sharp edge.

Now, if my shave test is calibrated to what I like I can get consistent results using it. Same with a HHT at whatever level. It is all subjective and relevant to the individual at that point in time (see what I did there Glenn?). How do you quantify such things? But when someone says it passed such and such a test whether it's a smooth shave on a shave test or a HHT-5 using a 0-5 scale I know that it is great shave FOR THEM at that point in time (did it again). I think as long as everyone understands that it's all subjective you get the point. Otherwise you can't talk about such things at all. Smooth for you is not always smooth for me but I know you are talking about your edge on your face or your HHT results on your razor. You tell me it passed a shave test for you but what does that mean to me? Nothing except it is a smooth shave for you which is exactly what you are trying to convey.

I am not trying to offend anyone as I appreciate EVERYONES opinion I just think it's time to stop swinging purses gentlemen. YMMV (thought I would throw that in there )

I think you hit the nail on the head there Steel, thank you!

Originally Posted by Steel

So many things in this hobby are subjective (maybe everything). I see people being scolded for using terms such as buttery smooth or HHT-4 (not saying that's going in here). I don't know why as long as everyone understands that it is subjective to THEM. The HHT for one person may not be true for another. What I am learning is that this is true of shave tests too. What one considers smooth and sharp another calls harsh and dull since it is all relative to experience, contours of the face, beard thickness, technique, ect. An edge that I think is the best ever maybe very harsh down the road after some more experience and harsh to those more experienced and awesome to those who have never had a sharp edge.

Now, if my shave test is calibrated to what I like I can get consistent results using it. Same with a HHT at whatever level. It is all subjective and relevant to the individual at that point in time (see what I did there Glenn?). How do you quantify such things? But when someone says it passed such and such a test whether it's a smooth shave on a shave test or a HHT-5 using a 0-5 scale I know that it is great shave FOR THEM at that point in time (did it again). I think as long as everyone understands that it's all subjective you get the point. Otherwise you can't talk about such things at all. Smooth for you is not always smooth for me but I know you are talking about your edge on your face or your HHT results on your razor. You tell me it passed a shave test for you but what does that mean to me? Nothing except it is a smooth shave for you which is exactly what you are trying to convey.

I am not trying to offend anyone as I appreciate EVERYONES opinion I just think it's time to stop swinging purses gentlemen. YMMV (thought I would throw that in there )

BINGO!! That's exactly it, it is subjective to everyone but...what we are talking about here when we talk about shave tests etc. is years of experience with honing and using straights. I shave test every razor I hone for myself and others and can tell if it's going to give a good shave and if it doesn't then it's not right, and no amount of pasted strop is going to do anything if the bevel etc. isn't right.

If I had to use a pasted strop to keep an edge on a razor then I would really have to question my honing abilities. But again that's just me, as I said before if it works for you then great...we're all here to learn from others and that's what makes it great.

When it comes to the HHT, and why we all say YMMV around here...My hair is so fine that about the only razors that will cut my hair in an HHT are FULL Hollows such as a Fili. It's why I laugh when guys try to break it down to different levels like 1-5. For me a HHT will get a 0...because in the end it may not cut a darn hair off my head but it will shave as smooth as a "velvet squeegee" that we all ultimately strive for

So how exactly does knowing that someone else thought they got a good shave or a hht 4 or whatever actually help you?

I agree with you regarding the subjective nature of these things, which is why I've never made any bones about the fact that I think numerical gradations of a subjective test is not only ludicrous but, IMO, deliberately misleading the less experienced into thinking there is something scientific going on. And I will continue to poke fun at the hht-x wherever and whenever I see it arise.

There is, however, an obvious exclusion (or perhaps exception, I don't know) to this idea of subjectivity, and that is the honemeister. The honemeister, or at least the successful one, appears able to transcend subjectivity to an extent and produce consistently good edges for a wide and varied assortment of shavers. And what makes a honemeister a honemeister? Sure, they have equipment we might not have and yes, they may posses a level of natural ability above and beyond the rest of us. But IMO what make a honemeister is experience. Razor after razor, stone after stone, strop after strop, client after client, year after year, edge after edge.

Anyway, I forget what my point was now.... but I think it had something to do with the nature of subjectivity and the mitigating effects of expertise.

YMMV of course.

James

Originally Posted by Jimbo

So how exactly does knowing that someone else thought they got a good shave or a hht 4 or whatever actually help you?

I agree with you regarding the subjective nature of these things, which is why I've never made any bones about the fact that I think numerical gradations of a subjective test is not only ludicrous but, IMO, deliberately misleading the less experienced into thinking there is something scientific going on. And I will continue to poke fun at the hht-x wherever and whenever I see it arise.

There is, however, an obvious exclusion (or perhaps exception, I don't know) to this idea of subjectivity, and that is the honemeister. The honemeister, or at least the successful one, appears able to transcend subjectivity to an extent and produce consistently good edges for a wide and varied assortment of shavers. And what makes a honemeister a honemeister? Sure, they have equipment we might not have and yes, they may posses a level of natural ability above and beyond the rest of us. But IMO what make a honemeister is experience. Razor after razor, stone after stone, strop after strop, client after client, year after year, edge after edge.

Anyway, I forget what my point was now.... but I think it had something to do with the nature of subjectivity and the mitigating effects of expertise.

YMMV of course.

James

Where do I start. Maybe an apology? If I offended you or anyone else that is not my intent. I have been helped as much as anyone else here with this forum and I do appreciate everyone's opinion and experience and will probably be the first one standing in line to get help again. I also know that "honemeisters" would be the first to state that even their experience is subjective when it comes to others applying it. What do I get out if another subjective experience? Besides sharing their success I also get something to try. What works for Lynn may not work for someone else and I repeatedly see him saying this along with have fun! It is not fun to argue about things on a forum where we all share the same hobby nor is it fun to have someone else made fun of for something they say. I don't think HHT 1-5 is misleadingly scientific. Lol. It is a scale trying to quantify something subjective much like when the nurse asks a patient "on a scale of 1-10 where would you rate your pain". That is not something to poke fun at IMO but hey to each their own and YMMV. So I guess my point is I will agree to disagree and move on and James just so you know I have read many of your posts and respect your opinion. You should know that. So again, I apologize if I am out of line here.