Thread: Less is More when stropping?

Glad to see another multi lap stropper, I don't feel like the lone ranger. One thing that made me a believer was the HHT. I wasn't ever getting it off of the hones but I would sometimes get it after honing and stropping. I read the fore mentioned post by mparker and increased my laps to 50 and 50. Suddenly I was getting HHT on most of my razors.

One thing that interests me is the barber manual excerpt on stropping and honing in the SRP Wiki Help files here. The writer says that you should go straight to the leather only following the hone and to the linen/leather following the shave. I resisted this for a long time as what I had been doing was working and I saw no need to fix it. Lately I have been following that instruction of leather only following the hones and it seems to be giving me as good a result as the linen/leather did.

Another interesting point in the manual is his saying that while the leather is considered indispensable the canvas is optional according to some barbers. He goes on to say that with certain hones the canvas is necessary. Even the experts of olden times suffered from YMMV.

Thanks Jimmy for bringing that up; isn't that basically saying some want to touch up on linen and some on the hone?

After all, it doesn't take much to see thata linen will make a failing edge crisp again.

It does often seem(when I get the edge honed just right which i dont always manage) that after those first passes on leather all the other shaves are trying to be that, just not quite.

which eventually leads to linen for a spell.

Originally Posted by pjrage

It's interesting how much more info on hones and honing we have available than stropping. Even down to asking what type of leather people like or whether they like cotton or linen or canvas or something else entirely. It seems like not many have even tried them all or really formed any solid opinions about what they like and why. Stropping seems to be much less scientific and more of a YMMV thing in a "this is what I do and what I like" kind of way without as much technical justification.

I'm a technical person by nature and by trade, so I guess I tend to over analyze things. I've been playing a lot with shaving and honing, mostly nailing down consistent and effective shaving and honing techniques, so that I can compare different razors, hones, and honing progressions to each other in terms of what really matters to me (the shave). I've been forming my own opinions about each, some of which I've shared. Stropping is one thing that I've been leaving for last, because I feel like my shaving and honing technique need to be up to par before I can properly evaluate stropping and the effect it has on the edge and therefore my shaves. Basically, I feel like all other variables (even including prep, lather, etc) need to be in check.

To date I've just stropped following the patterns that I've read on this site that work for others. 40-50x TM smooth cotton and 40-60x TM red latigo before every shave, and ~20/20 after the shave. My results with each razor have been very consistent, and IMO, very good as well. At this point, I haven't evaluated how much stropping has helped or hurt the shaves. I've never skipped stropping, and I never do much more or less strokes than that.

The only evaluation I've done so far regarding stropping is after a honing session when I check the bevel in the scope, and the edge with sharpness tests, as I progress through stropping. On a few occasions when I'm paying particularly close attention to both, I've done consecutive 30 lap sets and checked both the bevel and edge afterward and determined that the best thing I can do for the edge right after honing is stropping ~100x on the smooth cotton. For whatever reason, this makes a noticeable difference in sharpness for me. I've done 30x sets up past 180x total, and the benefit is pretty clear to me up until around 90x where it really seems to level off, so lately I've just been doing 100x on the smooth cotton after honing. I follow this up on the leather for another 80x or so, but the benefit here seems to taper at around 60 or 70 strokes after hitting the smooth cotton for 100x. I guess it could be in my head, but it works for me so far

I'm getting confident enough lately in my consistency in honing, shaving, and even prep, that I'm almost ready to start altering my stropping to really get an idea of how it affects my shaves. I'll be sure to share my findings for anyone who cares I really want to get a TM horsehide and linen combo to go with my smooth cotton / latigo combo, so I can also try to evaluate any differences there as well (if any). Might be a little while before I grab that, though.

One last thing to note regarding stropping is that often times as I'm going through the motions of stropping, I start to feel when the razor seems to feel different on the strop. It's like with the same stroke and pressure, the draw starts to change to be less. This is for the leather only, I've never felt this on the smooth cotton, at least, not to the same degree. I've wondered if maybe it's a sort of feedback that the razor is "done" being stropped, but I suppose it could be a number of factors not related to the "doneness" at all. At any rate, I've been wondering what meaning it has, if anything. It does seem to happen mostly toward the end of my 40-60 strokes for the razors I've noticed it with, but I can think of a couple times where it's been under 20x too (although I still finish my laps, just even lighter). Some days I don't notice it at all. Maybe because it's an imagined/meaningless feeling anyway, or maybe because the particular razor didn't get enough strokes? I'm not sure? I hope to find out eventually

Sorry for blabbering on so much... this really turned out a lot longer than I intended

The problem though it all goes hand in hand. I can't quite see how you can evaluate honing for instance if you strop. If you shave directly off the stone-then strop you can sorta evaluate both.

Shaving with minimal prep several days a week I find variability; some days are fairly easy some not. Probably variables in the environment- bad hair day as they say. A very good prep daily smooths that out; but depending on one's daily practice there could be enough residual effect to mess up a 1 or 2 day trial of a new method.

Originally Posted by honedright

Yes, felt draw initially. Not sure if more pressure helped, or was it more laps, or a combo of the two? Not sure. But within a half minute, or so, of stropping, and checking on my thumb, I got the razor how I wanted it. And that sufficed for me. But if I had relied on counting laps, I would have been shooting in the dark. Of course the subsequent shave was the proof of the pudding.

Ahhh, cool. That makes more sense. I've been shaving without doing a TPT for a long time. Just accepting the edge as is.

I believe I would be doing the exact same thing in order to TPT.

One of the things I miss from the Barber shop shave experience is laying in the chair with my face wrapped in a steam towel and the sound of the barber stropping the razor. I loved it. SB

I tend to strop till the draw changes. Sometimes it's 20 laps and sometimes it's 70. When the draw changes and feels smooth on both sides I do about 5 more laps and shave. Occasionally I will touch a hair on the back of my hand with the toe to check it but that would be the only test I do.

Originally Posted by kevint

Thanks Jimmy for bringing that up; isn't that basically saying some want to touch up on linen and some on the hone?

After all, it doesn't take much to see thata linen will make a failing edge crisp again.

It does often seem(when I get the edge honed just right which i dont always manage) that after those first passes on leather all the other shaves are trying to be that, just not quite.

which eventually leads to linen for a spell.

I don't know. I find that part of the manual confusing because to me the linen/canvas/webbed fabric/felt (name your poison) is effective. I've not tried to get a dull razor sharp with the linen as mparker has done but to me that proves that it works.

Last few razors honed have followed the manual and gone directly to leather with as good a result as going linen/leather. I won't try skipping the linen between shaves to refresh the razor. I guess I could and see what the results feel like but I believe the linen really does improve the edge.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I believe the linen really does improve the edge.

I agree with this as well. Even under a loop I can see a smoother edge with 20 laps on the linen vs right off the hone or paste. I might add that I'm using my dads old Russian strop that has some sort of waxy stuff on the linen. I've been told it's not a paste, but it's the way the strop came when my dad bought it 40+ years ago.

Tod

Tonight I tried to run a quick experiment. I wanted to see how much the TM smooth cotton could sharpen a razor. The strop is just plain, no paste, no nothing, just the way it came from Tony.

So, I took one of my sharpest razors that was finished on the nakayama and pastes, and dulled it. I first drew the edge in a sawing fashion from heel to toe on the corner of my sink (standard white sink counter top that is rounded maybe 1/8", don't know the material) with the weight of the blade only (it's a 5/8 hollow fwiw). This did cut into the sink a bit (surprised me, but didn't leave a mark), but didn't dull it to my satisfaction. It was duller, but still shaved hair better than I expected. I then moved to the bottom of a glass bottle, which if you haven't tried, is a fantastic way to dull a razor. I drug the edge along the bottom of the bottle (of aftershave ), heel to toe again, with the weight of the blade only. At this point, it was barely shaving anything. Considerably duller. I would never have shaved with the blade in this condition. If I'd done another swipe or two, it wouldn't have shaved ANYTHING whatsoever, but I thought that would be too extreme, so I moved on.

Now I have a few tests for sharpness that have been consistent for me in evaluating razors, and I can pretty much tell how a razor will shave based on how it reacts to the tests. I use a combination of trying to tree top leg hair, the HHT, and actually shaving some leg hair WTG (to see how easily the hair is removed). These may not be your tests, and you might think they are bogus, but the combo works well for me and has proven to be helpful and consistent, so you'll just have to take my word for it

I started straight on the Tony Miller smooth cotton strop as I normally strop. Started with 10x at a time. Here are the results from my notes...

Pre-test .. Effortlessly tree tops leg hair at any length, passes HHT nicely, shaves leg hair effortlessly, and the shaves off of it are great. It's a great shaving super sharp razor. Among my sharpest.

After dulling .. Just passing through leg hair on the tree topping test as if it were the spine. No grabbing, no cutting. Really struggling to cut any hair in the leg hair shave test. Of course, the HHT is a joke .. nothing.

-10x .. Saw some immediate noticeable improvement in grabbiness on the tree top test and some improvement in cutting, but certainly nothing to write home about.
-20x .. No improvement.
-30x .. No improvement
-50x .. Maybe a bit better.
-75x .. Starting to get back into the territory of grabbing leg hair.
-105x .. Starting to get back to actually shaving leg hair.
-150x .. Not much improvement.
-200x .. Just starting to sing and grab on HHT, but far from a clean cut.
-250x .. Really grabbing HHT but splits the hair instead of cutting/popping it. Starting to nicely grab leg hair on the tree topping test, but not really cutting it.
-300x .. HHT is further improved, tree topping a little improved. Not too much here.
-350x .. No real notable improvement.
-400x .. Not much improvement.
-500x .. Improved tree topping, starting to get a nice grab and cut here. HHT is starting to really look good now. Shaving leg hair is getting to be very good.
-600x .. Nearing very good on the tree topping test, but definitely not as good as pre-damage. HHT starting to really grab and pop. Shaving leg hair is great. At this point I noted that it was starting to feel like any benefit from the smooth cotton strop was dwindling. Maybe I was just getting tired? I did 100x more anyway.
-700x .. No real change. Maybe a little smoother shaving of leg hair.

I decided to move onto the leather. The sharpness tests were looking OK but not the best. It did seem as if it was about the best it was going to get using only the smooth cotton in any reasonable amount of time. The razor was performing as well as some razors I've shaved with comfortably, but not as good as the razors coming off my hones lately (basically since I got vintage thuringians and really the nakayama, lol).

Starting with 30x on the TM red latigo. No pastes or anything, only oils from my palm for a couple dozen passes.

-30x .. No real change in the edge. Oddly enough, I lost a little grabbiness on the tree topping test, but this is why I use all the tests... any one doesn't tell me the whole story. HHT still OK and shave test still smooth.
-60x .. Little worse yet tree topping test, but HHT is looking good and the shaving leg hair test is nice and smooth.
-100x .. The tree topping test saw a touch of improvement. No real change to anything else.
-200x .. No real improvement in anything.

I considered it finished at this point. The razor, IMO, should shave pretty well. It's passing the HHT pretty well and is passing my other tests to my liking. I very much doubt it will be my best shaver, but stranger things have happened. I think it will be "good enough" but not great. Certainly not as good as it was before the damage.

Overall I'm a bit impressed at how just the stropping improved the edge. Even though it didn't bring it all the way back, it definitely made a very very noticeable improvement in the edge. I'm curious how the shave will be. My tests indicate to me that it should be an acceptable but not superlative shave, however, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the first pass is scratchy and awful for some reason. Tests aside, the whole thing screams "baadd shave coming up" based on dulling the razor so extremely and not honing it.

This is an extreme case of damage. Not your run of the mill "razor is dulling" type thing. I brought the edge to it's knees, barely on the verge of shaving. I mean, I had to push it into my leg to get it cut anything, and even then it was inconsistent.

Anyway, that's my story for now. Thought I'd share in the spirit of stropping and strokes, etc. I plan to do a few more similar tests and of course report back tomorrow after the shave.

Thanks for taking the time to confirm mparker's findings.

I am interested whether or not the same results can be had when using the webbed fabrid SRD strops come with. Ie, a comparison between that and linen. Maybe its been done before, but I don't recall reading a post about it.