Thread: Stropping is King

Originally Posted by superfly

Well, gravity you can prove, but unless there is some metal residue on the strop, there is no metal removal. The strop simply straighten the edge that is being bent by the hair, just like the scythe man straighten the tool's edge back to shape by hammering it with a hammer.

Nenad

With only alignment you must reach the point where it stops working, we know that. And the only thing that restores sharpness after that is material removal, so the material must be getting removed. There's no mystery here. And it may not be metal. Robert told us of one theory that it's micro-oxidation. And rememebr, even if it's metal removal, we're talking about the amount removed by 20 reps on a .5 micron pasted strop (or 3-4 reps on a Swaty) over a period of 10 shaves. You wouldn't even notice that on a ceramic hone, which shows everything.

Originally Posted by mparker762

It's a new concept because we've never noticed this before, and it's not like we're refreshing our blades every few weeks just for the fun of it (ok, maybe some of us). So why haven't we noticed our blades staying sharp month after month? Looking at your video and reading your descriptions I can't see where you're doing anything that I'm not already doing, which leads me to believe that there's something else responsible, something that you're not aware that's different about your technique or equipment.

I think what you said here (highlighted quote) is very important.

When Tiger Woods swings a golf club, can you really see any difference in his swing compared to any other good player? Maybe some can, but I'm just using this for comparison. (I'm not a golf fan, but my understanding is Tiger is a fantastic player. Can you "see" what he is doing that makes him great?)

I don't think what I'm doing when stropping is something anyone can necessarily see.

Scott

Ok, everyone, get your ropes, because I'm about to spew some sacrilegious heresy...
First off, I had a hard time stropping until I started stropping by ear. I actually apply more or less pressure until I get a certain hissing sound that I like.
Secondly, I've always thought that stropping didn't necessarily abrade anything, but I agree with the heat suggestion. I actually suspect that on a microscopic level (which we would not feel at all-if one slides a piece of metal across a metal table, I'm pretty sure it has been shown that the friction was created by the molecules welding themselves to each other-same thing) I've always believed that in some portion of the stropping process the microscopic burrs and brambles, if you will, are heated up and "reflowed" into the edge, making it progressively smoother and smoother as the edge progresses.
In fact, next time you hone an edge to the level of sharpness you like, look at it before stropping through your microscope, then look at it after stropping to where you feel it is comfortable. When I did this it seems to me, anyway that the edge appears considerably smoother, and is dark....implying to me that it had been heated up considerably, especially near the extreme edge of the blade.
When I have gotten my blades to this point, they will ALWAYS pass the hanging hair test. I still bother Lena for a hair (because, for me, resurrecting them is just as fun or more than shaving with them) and cut it into little bitty peices...
Anyway gents I am enjoying this thread immensely; anything that helps make this easier to replicate is welcome in my opinion.
John P.

I have lots of thoughts on the subject.

One, I get that dark ice look off the hone, not off the strop. Turn the edge and the light hits it differently. What I see when I strop is a light criss crossing over the bevel.

Two, maybe it is heat that is building up. That would be with light high speed passes right? I'll try that and see what happens.

Third, I have one thought in the back of my head that has been bothering me. If we get on average about 7 shaves per honing then what exactly does stropping do? It seems to me that we get about 7 shaves per DE blade too without any stropping at all. I can hone pretty well, close to a DE, and can go several days without stropping and am concerned. I've stropped before each shave pretty mindlessly. I think I need to run a blade into the ground and get some clear effect from stropping. Technically, I don't have any evidence that the stropping I've been doing is really doing anything.

Forth, we have a lot of variables; beard thickness, stropping technique, honing technique (I hear Lynn's edges last a long time), etc, etc, etc.

I don't like the assumption that stropping has to be somehow sharpening the blade. In my mind if a strop can merely maintain the same edge then its doing its job.

It makes me wonder if were stropping the same but honing different. If Scott and Lynn are applying a "fin" then maintaining its orientation and alignment should last a long, long time.

Scott, can you describe how you hone?

Maybe I'll need to start applying stuff to my strop to try and build up heat . . . maybe hairspray

Originally Posted by honedright

I don't think what I'm doing when stropping is something anyone can necessarily see.

Right, but it doesn't seem to be anything you can describe either, or at least you haven't yet in this discussion described anything you're doing differently from anybody else - so something you're not aware of is keeping your blades sharp. Either something about your technique, or something about your strop. But *something*. We're just trying to figure out what that something is so we can keep our blades sharp for months too.

I lose absolutely zero sleep worrying about golfing as well as tiger woods. And if it turns out that your stropping ability is tiger woods-like, then I'm gonna lose zero sleep worrying about duplicating your mad stropping skillz, especially when it takes me less than a minute a week to keep mine sharp on the paddle.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Third, I have one thought in the back of my head that has been bothering me. If we get on average about 7 shaves per honing then what exactly does stropping do?

Not to be snarky about it but try shaving without stropping every day for a week.

DE blades are very different beasts. They aren't designed to be resharpened, so the manufacturers can pull all sorts of tricks. They're thinner, harder and they're coated with platinum or teflon, and I'd be willing to bet you that the microbevel on them is a few degrees steeper than our straights, which would also contribute a great deal of strength.

I've got a couple of razors with very hard steel, and I suspect I could shave with them for quite a few days before I needed stropping - they pop hairs as well at the end of the shave as they do at the beginning.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

It makes me wonder if were stropping the same but honing different. If Scott and Lynn are applying a "fin" then maintaining its orientation and alignment should last a long, long time.

I know I overhone a bit trying to get the sharpness I want. It's something I'm working on, and I'm slowly getting better at it.

Dude, I hang out on the internet, snarky I'm used to Still, doesn't it make you think that our stropping is kinda, ineffective?

Originally Posted by mparker762

Not to be snarky about it but try shaving without stropping every day for a week.

DE blades are very different beasts. They aren't designed to be resharpened, so the manufacturers can pull all sorts of tricks. They're thinner, harder and they're coated with platinum or teflon, and I'd be willing to bet you that the microbevel on them is a few degrees steeper than our straights, which would also contribute a great deal of strength.

I've got a couple of razors with very hard steel, and I suspect I could shave with them for quite a few days before I needed stropping - they pop hairs as well at the end of the shave as they do at the beginning.

Originally Posted by mparker762

Right, but it doesn't seem to be anything you can describe either, or at least you haven't yet in this discussion described anything you're doing differently from anybody else - so something you're not aware of is keeping your blades sharp. Either something about your technique, or something about your strop. But *something*. We're just trying to figure out what that something is so we can keep our blades sharp for months too.

I lose absolutely zero sleep worrying about golfing as well as tiger woods. And if it turns out that your stropping ability is tiger woods-like, then I'm gonna lose zero sleep worrying about duplicating your mad stropping skillz, especially when it takes me less than a minute a week to keep mine sharp on the paddle.

I certainly hope that what I'm doing is something that can be reproduced by everybody. That's the reason I started this topic. I knew I had something that appearantly few here had discovered and so I wanted to share and inspire.

I supose what I'm doing is best described as "knack." Could Tiger Woods describe how he places a golf ball where he wants on the course? Maybe he could. He'd probably talk about placing top-spin, or back-spin, or something like that on the ball. But could he teach someone to do it? I don't know.

It's like riding a bike, or steering the wheel of a car with your finger, or the top of your knee even. Could you imagine doing that when you first started driving??

All I can describe is a "feel" I've developed that tells me, based on experience, when I'm stropping correctly to get the results I've been getting. I have mentioned this "feel" concept before, even in other topics. But it's really hard to describe beyond that.

The best advice I have is practice, but with an awareness that maybe something more than what you've been doing in the past is achievable. (I know, I almost want to put my own finger down my throat after reading that..ha, ha, ha).

Now, as far as loosing sleep goes, let's face it...this is really only about shaving. I do it every day as a matter of course. I enjoy it, especially the way I do it with traditional tools and all, but it is still just shaving. Nothing to loose sleep over.

Scott

Originally Posted by JohnP

I actually apply more or less pressure until I get a certain hissing sound that I like.

I think a lot of us do that. When the strop has the right draw it does make a kind of hissing sound.

Secondly, I've always thought that stropping didn't necessarily abrade anything, but I agree with the heat suggestion.

Well, the heat is caused by friction ro abrasion, just like a brake linning will heat up if keep applying the brakes down a mountain. With manual stropping you can't generate enough heat to do anything physical. At most, the edge might feel a little warmer.

As a practical matter you can't deny that a plain strop does some abrading, caused by the draw (again friction) you feel. Flowing water does some, enough to wear down rocks. But the amount of abrasion is so little that we don't consider a strop abrasive. In the present case very little would be needed. The amount of material to remove from the edge is eqivalent to 20 reps on a .5 micron pasted strop. That would have to be removed over 400 reps on the strop. That's 1/20 of the material removal rate of .5 micron paste. If an abrasive that fine were available, you could put it on a strop and then you could repeat Scott's performance. Theoretically, you wouldn't have to hone ever, unless you damaged the edge. And you wouldn't need any special honing skills (sorry, Scott).

Could you find that much abrasiveness in some leather strops? I don't know. Maybe. I notice Scott says it didn't happen when the strop was new. So, maybe the abrasiveness developed over 10 years. In any case, the best stropping in the world could not be enough to maintain your razor, unless your strop was abrasive enough to remove material at the required rate.