Thread: Strop treatments - How far should we take it PT 2.

im new to the straight razor world, had my razor for about two weeks and sent it to Marty to hone and get a strop from him... He's been really helpful and i cant wait to get my razor back and try out his strop... ill come back and chime in and report my results as well.

"FWIW, I used to hear that frequent use of pastes and/or sprays leads to rounded edges and convex bevels. Anyone have an opinion on that. Is it a falisy, or is there some truth to it."

There are two logical reasons why pastes must eventually change the geometry of the bevel. First, they are abrasive and, secondly, stropping is done in a direction opposite to honing. The edge may not be rounded as a result, but the sharpness of the bevel edge geometry must eventually succumb to the abrasion. I tried pastes one time, couldn't see a difference, and have stuck with steel and leather ever since.

I haven't the equipment to examine edges under magnification BUT Marty did mention to me, on more than one occasion, that stropping does 'boat-hull' the cutting edge. He routinely examines his work under 400x magnification (correct me if i'm wrong) but regardless it's enough to verify and examine the effects of stropping with treatments.

I have seen a few comments on here geared towards treatments and not noticing a difference. I've yet to find someone that, if they follow this or a similar process, find that there are anything but positive results with regards to cutting performance and smoothness.

I will make one observation, the edge that I am producing with my JNAT, a Lvl5+ Ozuku, is the only thing that compares to my blades finished with this treatment process.

With that said, purchasing a package like this to achieve this level of shave is far more financially responsible than blowing a few C-notes on a high-quality JNAT. Are they as pretty as a high end stone though? NO

You make a good point. I have all the diamond sprays, various pastes and my one usage of paste didn't create anything in my shave that I could discern. I've even discontinued using webbing because it seemed to be harsh treatment of my edges. I started with and stick to Norton 1K, 4K, 8K and Naniwa SS 12K, Shapton 16K and Shapton 30. After that, and after every shave, the blade gets 100 laps on lathered, dried and wiped leather (lathered once every two months or so). That seems to be working. I might notice improvement now if I were to use a paste, but I like the ability to "quantify", to the extent that I can, the sharpness of my edges based on stones they are honed on. The pastes certainly do work, and they do refresh edges. In my man cave, however, I'm only three feet from my Shapton 30K, and it is too hard to resist if the edge seems to degrade.

I don't have any experience working with the shaptons so I can only comment from reading threads here. Apparently the shapton 16k and 30k are extremely agressive and lots of folks seem to have issues chipping their edges. If you're not having this problem then I'd say 'bullroar' to those claims and keep on doing what you're doing.

Having never shaved off a shapton 16 or 30k I cannot comment on the performance of the edge, however, as it applies to my JNAT, the cost of these stones far exceeds the price point of a strop system that provides 4 treatments and, for everyone that's tried it so far, has found an improvement over their 12k(ish) finishing stones.

I think there is some validity in saying that Lynn and Glen have both recommended using CrOx and at least, from what i've read, .5 CBN treatment (feel free to correct me if my mind has failed me on quoting them).

I have been experimenting with strops and paste for a few years, and what Randy said is so true. It is, all about the stropping medium especially when we are talking about sub- micron grits. Many people have uses sub-micron grits without expected results. There are 2 reasons for this.

1. Stropping Medium. Traditional stropping medium contain grit larger than the paste/spray grit. (Leather & Balsa). Or do not work well wet, CBN needs to be wet for maximum performance.

2. Progression. It is well accepted, using progression in “building” a bevel and comfortable edge, where 3-4K jumps, maximum are accepted. But think nothing of going from a 10-15K honed edge to a 100K plus paste/spray and are then disappointed in the results.

Paddle vs. Hanging strops. When we consider that we are talking about edges at 160k grit or .010 micron a paddle edge is different than a hanging strop edge. My experience is that the hanging strop makes the difference by creating a boat hull bevel vs. an arrow shaped bevel. That difference alone will make a stronger and sustainable edge.

CBN is unlike any other paste I have tested. Second in hardness to Diamond, it will produce an edge as quickly yet polish finer and will not leave the serrated edge and discomfort associated with Poly Diamond sprays.

Stories abound about failed paste experience, many are caused the above. Many are from stropping technique. Can you round an edge stropping on paste? Sure, just like you can with a belt sander. With paste, a fragile edge can more easily be dulled or destroyed. A convex bevel is a good thing.

In the end it is not magic or even complicated, it is simply a continuation of what we have been doing and employing new or non- traditional materials to achieve even finer results. A 160 K, sustainable and repeatable edge is quite possible for the average user.

Marty

A few more weeks and I'm still getting incredible shaves!!! I don't know if it's just coincidence but I'm finding that the progression works faster on carbon steel blades compared to stainless blades. I imagine this is related to the hardness and composition of stainless.

Marty mentioned that edges this refined can cause 'weepers', essentially micro cuts that leak plasma. I've yet to experience this, only great effortless shaves!

Originally Posted by ace

"FWIW, I used to hear that frequent use of pastes and/or sprays leads to rounded edges and convex bevels. Anyone have an opinion on that. Is it a falisy, or is there some truth to it."

Not within a reasonable amount of shaves... Another scientific truth that when tested on real razors falls into the Not relevant category...

I tested the theory out with way over use with .50 Diamond and .25 Diamond on a Felt hanging strop and never found the Convexing after nearly 90 shaves, I finally got bored with trying to create it and chalked it up to "Engineer's Brain"
ie: It is probably true but it isn't relevant in actual use..

@Brooksie, I never found the Weeper/Harsh/Refined edge problem either, just good smooth close shaves

There is another possiblilty that I mentioned during the testing It is possible that I am the world greatest stropper and that is why my edges did not convex

I dont have proof of such things, but its my thought that Gssicgun DOES have excellent stropping technique, so he never experienced any edge degradation. Too much pressure, or too slack a strop, would cause problems even without pastes, but WITH pasted could make problem more pronounced. Just a thought.

Congratulations Glen for winning the "Stropper of the Millennium" award!!! Your Tiara and Sash are in the mail