Thread: Leather Strops - are they a sham?

Originally Posted by Euclid440

I though you had said in another thread that you had a 5,8 and 12k Naniwa set?

I do EDC the DMT credit card three pack (325/600/1200). Otherwise; maybe it was another noob that goes by Bang Bang?

Originally Posted by BobH

I think the best way to learn is to attend some of the meet ups or find a member in your area that can give you some one on one time. I wish those had been an option for me.


Bob

Excellent suggestion! I will give that a try once I have some free time.

I feel for you Bob. I can imagine Thunder Bay might be a tricky place to find a specialist.

Originally Posted by Bang0Bang00

I think part of the problem could be coming from my 10k Chinese stone. I find it's pretty soft and somewhat inconsistent as a surface. I even spotted a visible black particle that was embedded in the stone. So it's a bit of a challenge to start off with a good edge, which seems to be the most important thing, the more I learn. But I plan on using this stone up first before I get into a Naniwa or something. I'm also thinking "if" I can get a good edge off of this one, then I'm making up in skill what I lack in stone. Plus, the 60x-120x microscope I use helps. I might have to go to the 800x microscope eventually though. N+1, right?

Is your "10k" Chinese stone a synthetic or a natural hone? I got mixed signals from what you wrote.

The original Guangxi chinese natural hone wrongly was called a 12k hone and then a few years ago they were expanded to being called anywhere from 1k to 15k. None of those designations were correct but they have stuck anyway. Then again, there also are synthetic chinese hones. Given that you mentioned "using this stone up" makes me assume that it is a synthetic.

So, what is it?

I think there has been a pretty good strop discussion here, but I'll just add that you primarily get sharp from the hone and smooth from the strop. Obviously your face will appreciate smooth.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

“I think part of the problem could be coming from my 10k Chinese stone. I find it's pretty soft and somewhat inconsistent as a surface. I even spotted a visible black particle that was embedded in the stone. So it's a bit of a challenge to start off with a good edge, which seems to be the most important thing, the more I learn. But I plan on using this stone up first before I get into a Naniwa or something”


Well, there’s your problem….

Really a Chinese stone is not 10 or 12k, some can finish but not 12k finish.

I though you had said in another thread that you had a 5,8 and 12k Naniwa set?

I pondered this... the chinese hone of unknown grit is a tough one.

It is time to pull mine back out and see if I can get it to work.
I would start with a bit of bar stock mild steel and burnish the surface I lapped on it way back.
I would then try with water and lather...
If that does not work I will try WD-40 and more burnishing.
If that does not work I will try oil.
If that does not work I will try Vaseline.

It that does not work back to using it as a paperweight and hone stand.

My 2K Green Brick shaves better than my Chinese rock but perhaps I have not given it my best tricks.

It is ok on some of my kitchen knives..

Originally Posted by Bang0Bang00

I think part of the problem could be coming from my 10k Chinese stone. But I plan on using this stone up first before I get into a Naniwa or something.

I can sort of relate to this statement on a philosophical basis, but at some point you have to realize that life is too short for crappy tools. Wearing out stones takes way too long to think that way. Think about how much good steel you will wear away trying to use sub par abrasives. Cheap tools are not really cheap.

My Chinese Guangxi hone is a pretty good finisher, and there is no possible way that it will be used up even by severel generations of overzealous honers after I am gone.

With respect to leather and linen, forget making sharp. They aren't abrasive, that is not what they do. Hones and pastes remove metal and make sharp. Linen and leather straighten and smooth edges to make comfort. So no, they're not a sham with respect to razors. There are other materials that can do this to varying degrees. Denim, canvasses, poly webbing, sail cloths, the list goes on.

With respect to knives, I see it as mental mastur...yeah. Waste of time really. All the sharpness I need in my EDC pocket knife I get from my Norton 4K hone or a quick trip over a Hard Arkansas stone. My kitchen knives I'm happy somewhere between 1K and 8K depending on the knife and it's purpose. Knives just have to cut. They don't need to shave comfortably, thus don't need stropping on leather. I think knife guys see razors as the apex of sharpness, and use stropping on untreated leather with the mistaken idea that it's making the blade sharper. But our edges were sharp long before linen or leather were brought into the equation.

Pasted strops change the game a little, since they become abrasive and are now able to make sharp. But at that point the question becomes does your paring knife really peel that apple any better after being stropped up to .1 micron (160K) CBN than it did at 4K? And do you really want to be going back to the high grit hones and pastes 7 days a week trying to maintain that edge? Once you're at that point a quick swipe across a steel will no longer fix the edge without wrecking your high level of polish and knives are often used for things that will damage that fine of an edge beyond the scope of what a non abrasive leather strop can repair.

Originally Posted by Bang0Bang00

As to the general consensus that it's either bad technique or leather, I think this is the most logical conclusion. Likely, it's not the leather. I'm still new and in the experimental stage of trying to figure out what works for me. Hence questioning something as trivial as leather strops.

It's a little frustrating when I guess the stars aligned and I got a wicked sharp edge off of the suede and CrOx. My baseline of comparison is the Feather brands double edge safety razor blades. That sharpness is what I'm aiming to get on my straight razor. I came close with that edge that one time. I want more of that level of sharp... which probably means buying some CBN eventually.

I think this is a two pronged issue. 1 - you're kinda new to the sport. So there are likely problems with technique. IF you have good tools, technique is clearly where the fault is. But if you have questionable tools on top of questionable skills, the problem compounds itself. Earlier you asked if anyone else has felt their edge get duller when stropped on leather after CrOx? They have. When they rolled the edge with poor stropping form. But if I were to take the razor that I maintain with .1 FeOx and strop it on leather daily it will continue to shave just as good as it would if it were hit with the FeOx until it naturally dulls beyond what the leather can repair.

IMO, the path to that feather-like edge does include pasted strops. Nothing my face has felt is keener than the blade I've honed up on my Shapton 12K, then stropped on .5 CrOx, .25 CBN, then .1 FeOx. Using just CBN pastes would likely be better still, as I was surprised by the level of comfort offered by the .25 CBN.

But there's also a reason I only have one blade treated that way. It's far more comfortable to shave with an edge made by my coticule/PHIG/Welsh Slates/Arkansas stones/sundry barber hones or even just a Norton 8K edge stropped with linen and leather. All a matter of preferences really, at the end of the day you have to do what your face likes.

Originally Posted by Marshal

Once you're at that point a quick swipe across a steel will no longer fix the edge without wrecking your high level of polish and knives are often used for things that will damage that fine of an edge beyond the scope of what a non abrasive leather strop can repair

This is a good way of putting it. Having worked in a kitchen for many years in my earlier days I more or less used a steel for my kitchen knives the same way i use a leather strop for my razors today. not to sharpen necessarily, that's done with a hone. but to polish the edge and straighten, and refresh a little, etc...

asking if leather is a sham is sort of like asking if using steel for a knife steel is a sham. certainly not the only material that can do the job, but probably the most universally accepted ways to do the trick

J EdgeLogix Ceramic Whetstone 7" 4000/10000 with Silicone Base (C18070) - House of Knives

Here's the Chinese stone in question. So it's synthetic ceramic in silicone base.

It was a gift. A well intentioned but misguided gift. I totally agree with the life is short use good tools mantra, it's just hard to justify an expensive replacement at the moment.

My last shave I got frustrated with the pull of the razor so I did 40 laps on the suede with CrOx again and it was almost back at that super sharpness I experienced before. I think I'm going to see how far I cab stretch this solution. I also lightened the press on the paddle strop to almost nothing and that seems to help.

First I hear of CrOx>CBN>FeOx. I'm guessing that's Iron Oxide? I'll have to check it out.

Nifty, would your suggestion work on a synthetic stone?

The CrOx > CBN > FeOx is just what I happened to fall into. Slightly more important than the material is the refinement steps, .5 micron > .25 micon > .1 micron. That's about as fine/sharp as it gets and not every razor can handle that much work.

Those stones might not be too bad. Usually when I see someone mention Chinese hones it's the super cheap Taidea/Weiwei/etc ones. At 100 bucks for a combination stone I would expect it to hang with Norton/Naniwa/Shapton etc.

Do you have a 1K stone and a loupe? Sounds to me like the bevel is still a bit off. If you've got magnification you may want to look through this thread:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ggestions.html

You must remember that the vast majority of sharpening stone are designed and made for knife and tool use.

We use a very small selection that have been proven to work with razors. A lot goes into a stone, other than just grit size to make it work for straight razors. Usually inexpensive stones, though yours is not that inexpensive, are too soft, because of the quality of the binder. Too soft of a binder is as much or more of an issue as too hard.

I have never heard or tried that stone, but as said it might be part of your problem.

As said your first step whenever attempting to correct an edge, should be to look at it. What you see will determine the course of action and or if your tools and techniques, are working for you.