Thread: Loom Strops/Slack

Originally Posted by kevint

Glen is saying stropping is under-emphasized.

I think you misunderstand what I mean here, but over the years there are literally thousands of threads about honing and stones compared to the Hundreds of threads about actual stropping technique..Most of those were done by AFDavis and Mparker with just a couple thrown in by me and a very few others...

The funny part is that I don't care how perfect you hone a razor it takes just a few seconds by an inexperienced shaver on a strop to destroy all that work..

Also think about this you hone maybe once every 2 weeks to once a year proper stropping can extend time between honing for every razor and increase shaving comfort and it is something that most of us do every single time we shave... So yes on SRP, in general stropping technique, is under-emphasized, now on the EU shaving forums I think it is much more important I remember a thread from Bruno that he brought over from one of those forums all about pasted stropping on loose loom strops for actual sharpening, these guys basically set the bevel then smooth that up, and switch to the Dovo Green, Red, and Black pastes on their loom strops, so to them stropping is really King ...

I understand exactly what you mean. Which is why i said I did not intend to say that either gent under-emphasized stropping, but what they do iirc is minimal compared to many regimes/ those which try to emphasize stropping with large count laps on linen and leather- sometimes multiple leathers and a paste thrown in there to start.

I am quite sure I could boost my sharp level with paste, or eliminate most of my stones if i wanted too.

I can push past two weeks with linen- so about a month of daily use would be a good average for me w/o a need for hone. Still a short time shaver.

I use slight sag with some spine pressure. I dont think the edge is shaped beyond what is thought to be normal straightening.

From what I've read AF Davis11 and mparker762 always put a lot of emphasis on stropping and continually experiment with laps, pressure, no pressure and more, Here is a thread by Alan which generated a lot of comment.

The 4th post by mparker762 was where I got my strop count from,"I've been doing a lot of experimenting with stropping lately and one thing I've noticed is that I have been drastically understropping my razors these past years. If I only did 10-15 laps on the linen and 30 or so on the leather then my edges would last about ten days. But if I did 40-50 on the linen and 30 or so on leather then the edges didn't really deteriorate at all over several months (Stainless razors need far fewer laps on the linen to keep a great shaving edge)."

Because of my dyslexia I ended up doing 50 and 50 as my default routine. In his "great experiment" threads thebigspendur found that 60 and 60 was about as far as you can go before you begin having diminishing returns.

This morning I took a razor made of S30-V and used my Livi loom (leather) with sag between passes. It did seem to improve the edge. I specifically mention the edge being S30-V because it has a reputation for being difficult to sharpen. I will give it a go with a Sheffield wedge in the next day or two and see what I think.

I've been lurking around here for awhile and finally decided to jump in. Thanks to this thread I relaxed my death grip on my strop this morning and allowed my strop to sag just a little bit. And WOW what a difference. I was unprepared for how sharp my razor was and nicked myself good.

I think this topic is underemphasized because there are so many variables involved that there seem to be multiple "right" answers, as well as answers that are right to a degree but become very wrong when taken too far (ie. pressure). Depending on the cloth/leather/size/razor/etc., things are different.

This is a nuanced area of straight razor maintenance, and it's difficult to describe in words what you are experiencing on the strops. It's harder, for me at least, to pinpoint which variable is accounting for the successes or failures. I've adopted the 40-50 linen/leather strokes as well along with a slight sag and pressure. I've hit a pretty sweet spot for my razors, but my "slight" may be different than YOUR "slight" so it's really tough to get on the same page with someone else on this stuff (ESPECIALLY ON FORUMS).

Originally Posted by Bruce

Have you ever put a trigger pull guage on your strop to try to quantify the tension you're placing on the strop while using it?

No, but a while back I considered hanging my strop off a cord over
a pulley/ door knob with a can of beans as a counterweight. I had
gotten into a heavy handed stropping mode.

Like driving with a virtual egg under your foot thinking less is
more improved the edge I was working on.

Now off to order a couple pounds of strop dressing.

Originally Posted by Loren7

I've been lurking around here for awhile and finally decided to jump in. Thanks to this thread I relaxed my death grip on my strop this morning and allowed my strop to sag just a little bit. And WOW what a difference. I was unprepared for how sharp my razor was and nicked myself good.

You are welcome or I am sorry, which ever is most appropriate.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

In general the heavier the grind the looser I use the strop, BUT this is all relative and I hesitate to even use the word loose on here because we have so many newbie shavers on the forum that can misinterpret what we mean here...

I find the same thing. Actually this is my main complaint about my Hand American strop (yes I plan on posting a review). The thick leathers glued together make it hard to give it slack. It works fine on my hollows, but wedgier grinds do not get what they need.

I get the impression, reading the replies that there is a request for more info about what I do. Without seeming alusive, it can be a little complicated.

I believe, quite differently than most, that a strop can do a lot of damage even when done correctly. I'm not in the "no amount of stropping will wear out an edge" group.

So, I often start by asking myself "Is there really a need to strop?". If the razor is still shaving well, I'll just leave it alone. If the razor is shaving well I see little reason to mess with it. Before we get too far, I can hone a razor up that does not need to be stropped at all. While shaving I do very little damage to the edge.

Next, I use a taut strop and see how it feels. Am I getting good draw? Am I getting draw as good as I can get? With a light touch and a taut strop I evaluate the edge with the first two-three passes down the strop. If the strop/razor "reads" sharp by having a good draw I'll finish up with five to six total passes. I believe that if the razor is sharp and smooth it doesn't get sharper and smoother. I can read the razor off the strop. I know what it will feel like at the optimum. Afterall, I shaved and stropped with the thing just yesterday. I can also do a thumbpad test if I'm really not sure what I'm feeling on the strop, but that is pretty rare.

Next, if I'm not getting good draw I will apply a slight amount of pressure first and see how that helps. Then I go back to light pressure. If that fails then next, I'll apply a little slack to shape the edge inward. This would be described best as deflection. Then I go back to a little pressure and a taut strop, then I use a few passes with no pressure at all. This process is usually a weekly event. My purpose is to build up a draw. If there is no draw; I do not shave, I hone, then strop a few passes.

Total passes is usually about 25 if the razor is not shaving well, five to seven if the razor is going well.

I believe that if done correctly, more than about 10 strokes, isn't very effective. That is very different than other folks. I'm open to being wrong, I'm only saying what works for me. So within the first five to seven passes I can read the razor and know whether it is ready or not.

So at the risk of seemingly being totally crazy, what I think about is building up an edge and shaping it up. If the razor doesn't feel right, I'll use 25-30 passes, but they will not all be the same (light/taut). To me that seems like insanity. I won't keep stropping and stropping the same way and expect a different result. Five to seven passes, if that doesn't work, I try something that will.

I can make a razor go a very long time like this, shaping, and stretching out the edge for shaving. But, I don't. I usually end up honing every month. My purpose in the stropping/reading process is to simply produce the best edge as quickly as possible. I have never used a taut strop and light pressure and felt that the edge after 10 passes was any better than if I do 100. To me it feels simply the same.

One, immediate problem, is that by adding a little pressure you can dull the blade. That would suck if I didn't have a barber hone in the med cabinet. Every once in awhile I dull a razor if I'm not paying attention. My pressure threshold is to only apply enough pressure to feel a draw. A little more, just a fraction more and bam, I can dull the edge. Embarrasing, except that we are often talking about 4 am here.

I think I will try some slight defection first, now, instead of adding pressure and see how that works. Slack is the exact same problem. You go too far and, BAM, its dull.

I could try to add a lot more passes, because the theory is that the edge will last longer, but I don't really buy into that theory. More importantly to me is that I just don't feel like I have time to do 60 passes in the morning. My wife would start yelling about it. And again, I've never felt the increase in benefit that others swear by. I simply don't feel it.

I use a high end Dovo strop, it is very thin. I sometimes apply graphite to my strop and wipe/clean it off. I suspect that there could always be a touch of graphite remaining. I mention that only for full disclosure.

Alan, I've been looking forward to meeting you at some point as I've been rather interested in your stropping posts.
From your descriptions it seems that effective stropping is a fairly delicate business, and I haven't really experimented with that. I've varied the strop and get different results depending on it.

I suspect that you have tried few strops (besides that piece of tire in the jungle), but may not have experimented that much as with your regular one. Have you had to modify the expectations for the feedback you're looking for depending on the strop?