Thread: Some rather basic questions...

Trimmy the issue is not really whether to tape or not. In this case he has damaged the spine because he didn't. What he fails to recognize is that he is contradicting his own statement of "first principles" by completely ruining both ends of the equation. The spine is no longer a constant thickness and neither is the bevel. So what he has now is an angle of varying degrees. Is this a better situation than having less angle by using tape? No. His answer is to hollow the razor more. WRONG The answer would be (according to his own process of thinking) to even the thickness of the spine and match the edge to that. This way his coveted first principle would be back to where he started, well almost. If he would have bread knifed the chips out and then proceeded to hone the bevel back he would have fewer problems than he does now. This is where he went wrong. What we have here , is a failure to communicate :<0)

Nigel, seeing as you seem to have this all figured out, let me ask you......
What is the optimum angle of a razors bevel?
What tolerances in the angle are acceptable in a razor capable of giving a fine shave ?
Is there a chart showing the measurements which will easily help me achieve this angle or at the very least a formula ?
In your figures, how much would you have decreased the angle had you used tape ?
I mean you figured this all out right ?
IMO your 2 dimensional thinking is holding you back from solving a 3 dimensional problem.

Maybe we should invite Riemann880 to this thread and he could help explain it :<0)

Originally Posted by RezDog

They are your razors and you can mess them up if you want. I think there are better razors out there to learn with. If you want to shave with those send them out. If you want to learn to hone buy other ones. These are heirloom razors.

I truly agree with this gentleman. When I stated to hone I gathered me 3 or 4 cheaper razors off the Ebay and practiced on them and when I was through and could shave with them I would sell them. if I got my money back ok if not still ok because I learned from them. all said and done I would learn on razors not quite as good.

Originally Posted by 10Pups

Nigel, seeing as you seem to have this all figured out, let me ask you......
What is the optimum angle of a razors bevel?
What tolerances in the angle are acceptable in a razor capable of giving a fine shave ?
Is there a chart showing the measurements which will easily help me achieve this angle or at the very least a formula ?

It's all here http://www.coticule.be/wedges.html if he cares to download the Excel file and use it. A little measuring and plug in the numbers.

Bob

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Show me a razor that has stopped shaving because of tape?

When I put tape on the edge it stops shaving....LOL

You're arrogant that's why I posted, I see guys attack new people on here who ask a question and get a smartA$$ reply especially if they mention that they know how to sharpen a knife, or an axe or in this case an engineer!
All I hear is chest thumping - You know what, our straight razors are the only sharp tools that I know of that have a built in Jig, how simple is that? I would THINK someone who can sharpen a knife (without a jig) with a little non - condescending instruction and chest thumping could figure this simple stuff out. But I see Nigel has jumped on the band wagon now, so I really don't care....

There is a difference between theory, pretty drawings and reality.

Go for it, glad you think you got it figured out… Grind away…

The size of the chip does not matter…

Try it and see, no theory, no arguing… no problem, just try it...

If he or anyone else wants to grind their razors, fine. Just don’t tell people that it is the proper way to hone, because it is not.

Some people just want to argue.

Originally Posted by Siguy

Nigel,

Bunch of great info already organized over in the Library that might be helpful.

Category:Honing - Straight Razor Place Library

and

Honing a damaged blade - Straight Razor Place Library

are always good reference points.

Cheers!

Thanks - I am now starting to see the point. A heavy taping of the spine increases the hone angle sufficiently to create a secondary bevel (like on a plane blade). This of course makes the cutting edge of the razor less acute and every time you hone in future you will have to reproduce the same level of taping. I can see that this will result in less hone area on both the spine and the edge than if the razor is honed without taping. This will be visually more pleasing perhaps, and with less area to hone the honing will be quicker. I may try this when I restore my other old Sheffield razor.

Although I haven't practiced engineering for over 30 years, there is something about this taping that doesn't feel right to me. The hollow ground razor is a simple yet highly effective design. The hollow grind allows the razor to be honed flat, guaranteeing a consistent and accurate blade angle every time without the need for any fuss or additional equipment - in fact I have been using the hollow grind technique for many years on my plane blades and some of my finer chisels (James Krenov in his highly influential books on cabinetmaking recommends this approach). As the razor gets used the hone areas increase, but that is just an inevitable consequence of honest use in the way it was designed to be used. If the wear get really heavy, then its time of regrind or buy a new one.

In the end I think it comes down to aesthetics and everyone has their own taste. Visual aesthetics may point to taping, but the aesthetics of function (for me at least) point to using the tool in the beautiful way in which it was designed to be used.

Originally Posted by Siguy

Nigel,

Bunch of great info already organized over in the Library that might be helpful.

Category:Honing - Straight Razor Place Library

and

Honing a damaged blade - Straight Razor Place Library

are always good reference points.

Cheers!

Thanks - I am now starting to see the point. A heavy taping of the spine increases the hone angle sufficiently to create a secondary bevel (like on a plane blade). This of course makes the cutting edge of the razor less acute and every time you hone in future you will have to reproduce the same level of taping. I can see that this will result in less hone area on both the spine and the edge than if the razor is honed without taping. This will be visually more pleasing perhaps, and with less area to hone the honing will be quicker. I may try this when I restore my other old Sheffield razor.

Although I haven't practiced engineering for over 30 years, there is something about this taping that doesn't feel right to me. The hollow ground razor is a simple yet highly effective design. The hollow grind allows the razor to be honed flat, guaranteeing a consistent and accurate blade angle every time without the need for any fuss or additional equipment - in fact I have been using the hollow grind technique for many years on my plane blades and some of my finer chisels (James Krenov in his highly influential books on cabinetmaking recommends this approach). As the razor gets used the hone areas increase, but that is just an inevitable consequence of honest use in the way it was designed to be used. If the wear gets really heavy, then it's time to regrind or buy a new one.

In the end I think it comes down to aesthetics and everyone has their own taste. Visual aesthetics may point to taping, but the aesthetics of function (for me at least) point to using the tool in the beautiful, elegant way in which it was designed to be used.

Originally Posted by NigelW

Thanks - I am now starting to see the point. A heavy taping of the spine increases the hone angle sufficiently to create a secondary bevel (like on a plane blade). This of course makes the cutting edge of the razor less acute and every time you hone in future you will have to reproduce the same level of taping. I can see that this will result in less hone area on both the spine and the edge than if the razor is honed without taping. This will be visually more pleasing perhaps, and with less area to hone the honing will be quicker. I may try this when I restore my other old Sheffield razor.

Although I haven't practiced engineering for over 30 years, there is something about this taping that doesn't feel right to me. The hollow ground razor is a simple yet highly effective design. The hollow grind allows the razor to be honed flat, guaranteeing a consistent and accurate blade angle every time without the need for any fuss or additional equipment - in fact I have been using the hollow grind technique for many years on my plane blades and some of my finer chisels (James Krenov in his highly influential books on cabinetmaking recommends this approach). As the razor gets used the hone areas increase, but that is just an inevitable consequence of honest use in the way it was designed to be used. If the wear gets really heavy, then it's time to regrind or buy a new one.

In the end I think it comes down to aesthetics and everyone has their own taste. Visual aesthetics may point to taping, but the aesthetics of function (for me at least) point to using the tool in the beautiful, elegant way in which it was designed to be used.

I think you nailed it. A wedge is difficult to hone, and when honing without tape or at least in my experience you will get results like you did. The tape makes a wedge easier to hone without the excessive wear, and like you said makes it more visually appealing (small bevel, no more wear on the spine). I was getting upset that you were being told you're doing it wrong, when you weren't you were sharpening the tool as intended. I tape all my spines when honing, but I feel it's personal preference, unless you're trying to make up for an uneven or severe spine wear. Which you now have. I believe there are people on SRP that do regrind razors. I would think a wedge would make for a good candidate, could be wrong about that...you may want to check out some of the other Sub forums and start poking around there. There are a lot of guys making razors that maybe able to help guide you with regrinding..

Originally Posted by Trimmy72

I think you nailed it. A wedge is difficult to hone, and when honing without tape or at least in my experience you will get results like you did. The tape makes a wedge easier to hone without the excessive wear, and like you said makes it more visually appealing (small bevel, no more wear on the spine). I was getting upset that you were being told you're doing it wrong, when you weren't you were sharpening the tool as intended. I tape all my spines when honing, but I feel it's personal preference, unless you're trying to make up for an uneven or severe spine wear. Which you now have. I believe there are people on SRP that do regrind razors. I would think a wedge would make for a good candidate, could be wrong about that...you may want to check out some of the other Sub forums and start poking around there. There are a lot of guys making razors that maybe able to help guide you with regrinding..

Thanks Trimmy. I am quite thick skinned and appreciate feedback, negative or positive. In fact negative feedback can be far more useful, painful though it may be to hear it. One learns far more from one's mistakes than from one's successes. This debate was a little heated but I have gained much understanding from it.

In the case of my razor I believe it will improve over time, like most good and well cared for tools. If my honing stones are flat (I havnt checked them for a while, so I should do so again) and I hone from now on with the correct technique the hone surfaces should even themselves out with time so long as the razor itself is free from distortion.

Originally Posted by NigelW

Thanks Trimmy. I am quite thick skinned and appreciate feedback, negative or positive. In fact negative feedback can be far more useful, painful though it may be to hear it. One learns far more from one's mistakes than from one's successes. This debate was a little heated but I have gained much understanding from it.

In the case of my razor I believe it will improve over time, like most good and well cared for tools. If my honing stones are flat (I havnt checked them for a while, so I should do so again) and I hone from now on with the correct technique the hone surfaces should even themselves out with time so long as the razor itself is free from distortion.

Welcome. That's good to hear. I felt you were looking for answers, and weren't getting the answers you were looking for. Just replies, from people thinking you were questioning their methods of madness and you were, but they didn't take the challenge very well. You wanted hard evidence for these methods, which I believe others provided then with links? It was not meant to get heated, I wasn't mad just pointing out that if you're going to help someone, help them. Don't beat them down because they don't think like you. I don't think people taped spines way back when, taping I believe is a relatively new concept compared to how razors were meant to honed with normal use. 100 years ago I doubt taping a spine for honing methods was even thought of, they just tossed the razor.

I would definitely check your hones for flatness draw a pencil grid and lap until the grid is gone, it will make honing that much more easier. As far as the Spine working itself out, I don't know. As long as the spine itself is touching the hone it's going to do what the spine tells it to at the edge. I think at this point unless your going to stick with a traditional method of honing, I would tape the spine which should help correct any issues you may have created at the edge because of the spine wear. Which is what Euclid440 was saying. Use electrical tape even two layers is fine. I think this creates a hollow like effect which will make it easier to hone also.

For the rest, If I'm wrong I'll edit my post - but please explain as I'm still learning after 5 yrs. of honing razors