Thread: Caswell greaseless compund won't stick

Speed is only one half of the equation, the diameter of the wheel is the other. 1750rpm may be great for a 10" wheel, but if you are spinning a 4" wheel, you need way more rpm to get the same surface fpm (which I assume is what melts the compound and gets it to stick to the wheel). That said, I have zero experience with these grease-less compounds and I will defer to the experts on how to actually use it.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

A little more info will help me help you Kees

Size of the wheels
Type of wheel ie: Loose, Sewn, Sisal ???
Speed of the buffer

I cleaned the wheel with white spirit and turned it round. I only manage to get some of the compound to stick to the wheel if I really push the bar of compound against the spinning wheel. While doing so most of the compound that is rubbed off the bar ends as crumbs on the floor and the workbench. Is that normal?

Temperature can really affect greaseless and make it misbehave. One thing to try is put the compound in a water tight bag and place it in hot water for a few mins, the compound will soften to a paste and can then be easily applied. It will harden up again as it cools. This methods is also a very useful mess free way of applying

Originally Posted by Kees

I cleaned the wheel with white spirit and turned it round. I only manage to get some of the compound to stick to the wheel if I really push the bar of compound against the spinning wheel. While doing so most of the compound that is rubbed off the bar ends as crumbs on the floor and the workbench. Is that normal?

You want to "Drag" the compound on at first, ie: hold the compound on the high side of the wheel and let the wheel "Drag" it on,,

You need to start with light pressure and let the wheel heat the compound so that it "Melts" onto the wheel, as it starts to build you can "Bump" it on so that you get a solid load..

Once it starts to load, go as far as you can if it is loading, if it seems to stop loading STOP, shut off the power and cup the wheel with you hands as it slows down then walk away and wait that loading to dry...
Come back after 10 min and repeat until the wheel is loaded fully I always cup the wheel as it slows after every loading so that I start with a smooth surface..

When the sparks stop it is time to re-load...



Crumbles are not good, the compound should be sticky & gummy as it comes off the end,, the two conditions of the compound that do not load well

#1 Dried out and hard

#2 Soft and crumbly

I cut off the ends 1/4 inch at a time until I find the condition I am after.. If you are not using the compound often it MUST be wrapped and stored correctly, or you will be cutting it often
It should be spitting out small sticky trailings like the beaters do when making a cake

All good information!
A cheap temporary substitute for a purposed rake while awaiting one from the supplier is a coarse wood rasp. Hold it carefully and solidly and about 45º to the wheel surface. Half round ones work best.
~Geezer

As I mentioned above, I am NOT a polisher... though I am quite good at judging another persons buffing work on a gun bluing job. The following has been taken from the Caswell buffing pdf. so now I think I know what "greaseless" compound is.

Greaseless Compound


Produces a semi-dull/bright appearance commonly referred to

as satin, silk, butler or scratch finish. Use for burring, polishing,
trimming, blending, breaking edges and removing machine marks, pits and surface imperfec-
tions. Excellent for cleaning rusty surfaces and welding burns. The descriptive word “grease-
less” is applied to this type of polishing compound because it is made completely free of grease,
oil or wax. The formulations are composed of abrasive grits blended into a mixture of animal
hide glue and water, which serves as the adhesive binder. When the solid stick compound is ap-
plied to a revolving buffing wheel, frictional heat softens the compound - transferring a coating
to the wheel face. The coating dries immediately, forming a flexible and resilient abrasive cut-
ting surface that is ready for instant use. When the abrasive head is worn down, polishing action
is renewed by again applying compound over the worn head. The work surface is left dry - re-
quiring no cleaning should a subsequent painting or plating operation follow.

Greaseless Buffing compounds may be applied to almost any cloth buffing wheel, (sisal, spiral
sewn cotton & loose cotton) turning it into a tough flexible grinding wheel. The roughest casting
edges can quickly removed. These materials do an excellent job of leveling highly contoured
surfaces quickly.
Currently, Greaseless Compounds come in 5 grit sizes: 80, 120, 180, 240, 400.
Ideal for removing sand casting marks from manifold, wheels, etc.
For storage, the compound should be sealed in its plastic sleeve, or in a Ziplock bag, and stored
in a cool location. If the compound has hardened, place 1/4 cup of water with it in the bag, and
leave it for 24-48 hours to re-absorb the water.

And regarding wheel size and rpm Caswell sez:

BUFF RUNNING SPEEDS
For best results your wheel should maintain a surface speed of between 3600 & 7500 Surface
Feet Per Minute. (SFPM). The higher your speed, the better and quicker your results.
Formula for calculating surface speed of wheel
in SFPM.
SFPM = 1/4 x diameter of Wheel x RPM (revs of
spindle per min.)
Therefore an 8” wheel @ 3600 RPM =2 x 3600 =
7200SFPM.
Spindle speeds can be increased by a step pulley on a motor shaft.

Hopefully this will help in clearing up some questions about buffing... The PDF was posted in another thread, but I can't seem to find it at the moment.

Regards

Christian

Thanks guys for all the advice above.

I got this from the Caswelle website as well:

Applying Compound

LITTLE & OFTEN is the rule. Too much compound will reduce the effectiveness of the cutting action, because the surface will become TOO greasy and over lubricated. This can often be seen by the prescence of a black slick of compound that seems to reveal around the work piece. Apply compound to the wheel for approx 1 second. Any more is wasted.

Especially the recommendation to apply for 1 second only is apparently impossible to achieve.

Those comments are meant for grease based compounds, not the newer greaseless.

If you are having problems getting the compound to melt (greaseless only), you need to check the SFPM on your wheels and check to make sure the compound hasn't dried out. The older style of compounds melt onto a wheel pretty easy, but they come off and leave that black slick around where you've buffed. It has to be removed if you want to put a clear coat on the item, thus the invention of the greaseless.

Regards

Christian

Originally Posted by Kees

Thanks guys for all the advice above.

I got this from the Caswelle website as well:

Applying Compound

LITTLE & OFTEN is the rule. Too much compound will reduce the effectiveness of the cutting action, because the surface will become TOO greasy and over lubricated. This can often be seen by the prescence of a black slick of compound that seems to reveal around the work piece. Apply compound to the wheel for approx 1 second. Any more is wasted.

Especially the recommendation to apply for 1 second only is apparently impossible to achieve.

The problem with speed for buffing razors is heat, you can easily overheat a thin razor edge with a large wheel on a buffer. 3 or 4 in wheels on a 1750 or 3400 rpm buffer work well and run at the rated RPM and Surface speed.

Buff bare handed, with a finger on the back side of the blade and quench in water at the slightest temperature rise, I keep a cut down water bottle on the bench next to the buffer. 6 & 8 in wheels generates a high wheel surface speed, (double the RPM) and generates a lot of heat, quickly. That and pressure, let the grit do the work. I do not bolt down my buffers, if they are moving you are using too much pressure, and heat quickly.

Too hot to hold, and you may have cooked it.

Here is the full Castells buffing tutorial. It is on their website, though hard to fine on their new site. Page 4 talks about rpm, surface speed and wheel size. The last page has a good chart on using greased compounds.

I received a PM from a member concerned about the fact that I do not bolt down my buffers and that Baldor recommends bolting the buffer to a solid surface. And that Sisal wheel or unbalanced wheels may cause the buffer to fall from the bench.

Using a buffer is dangerous, using one on a straight razor is extremely dangerous. Hell most all that we do here is dangerous... If you see your wheels are unbalanced don’t use them.

I use sewn and loose cotton wheel with both greased and greaseless with a Baldor, a Harbor Freight and a no name Taiwan buffer and they all perform the same, run smooth on the bench and do not vibrate, and have done so for years.

I do not use sisal wheels, I have some and tried them and do not feel any benefit from using them, so perhaps with sisal there may be an issue, but I do not know.

The bottom line and the original point was, Buffers can be dangerous, use care and your best judgment, but do not use pressure with greaseless, it is dangerous and you can easily and quickly, ruin a straight razor.

If you are buffing other things, with other wheels and compounds, you may need pressure and bolting your buffers maybe a good idea. If you don’t and you see your buffer falling off the bench, you may want to stop buffing your razor and turn off the buffer…