Thread: Discussion: Why do we use pivot washers?

I think that years ago razor makers knew that there would be a gap in time where much razor knowledge would be lost, and then one day a bunch of razor enthusiasts would try to regain that lost knowledge.
The head razor guy of the razor guy league thought it would be funny to put washers in there so that one day people would say, "I wonder what these are for?"

I reckon about 50 - 60 per cent of the ones I dismantle have them - BUT - if I grouped them into groups according to the age of the razor, then in certain groups 80 per cent or more would have them.

I don't think it is anything to do with blade centering - like Alex says, adding equal thicknesses of washer on either side of the tang cancels any biasing out.

As far as I can make out it is to do with scale thickness and adding clearance for the tang to pivot - a real concern with faceted tangs and stiff scales; scale delicacy - never seen ivory scales without them; and high-end razors where the scales may scratch the tang.

I'm not sure that it has much to do with friction - I think 'friction washer' is a modern term and we are backdating modern terminology to make it fit in with what we percieve the name to mean.

I don't think that they help clear water from the pivot - to the contrary in fact - the layer of water trapped between the tang and the washer would be next to impossible to blow away.

I have seen the raised area that Glen mentions, and also - rarely - a sort of cupped or sprung washer which acted not to centre the blade but the oversized hole in the tang.

If I had to choose a reason, I guess I would go for avoidance of wear due to abrasion, both on the scale and the tang.

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

If I had to choose a reason, I guess I would go for avoidance of wear due to abrasion, both on the scale and the tang.

IOW, to avoid friction

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

IOW, to avoid friction

Damn you Jimmy - I sense another 'LMAO Old Fart' coming in from Glen...

Mother said that there would be days like this...

Nope I'll let the "Old Fart" remark slide (this time) but I am still giggling


Times like this is when I really enjoy this forum ....

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I would disagree here, A much higher percentage of the ones I pop have them, then don't, I would say in the neighborhood of 80% and many of the scales that don't have actual washers, have a raised dais that serves as a washer in effect...
Do you need them??? I would really tend to say it depends on what the scales are made of first, then how you set up the flex and bow, as to the angle of the scales touching the razor....

With what you do Alex using mostly CF, and ultra thin at that, plus making your own razor with the tang angle where you want it, I bet you don't need to use washers...

Interesting....
Is there a bias to material. Wood, horn, plastic...
I would expect them under ivory.

Neil had some good points there. I also don't think it has anything to do with water clearance.

In terms of scale thickness and tang clearance- this is still the best explanation that I can justify. On ivory scales they might have indeed NEEDED them, but the washers were never really thick enough to make a huge difference there. I guess this ties in with my thinking that they needed to make the best out of what they had, but today, with more stable, flexible, thinner materials, maybe it is growing into a different sort of need? Personally, I almost think a razor functions better (opening/closing) without them in lots of the scale materials I use. I think I mostly use them for clearance of the tang (because a thin washer can still make a little difference there rather than no washer) and honestly because it is what we've come to expect- that's not necessarily a bad thing either.

maybe the "older" razor has thinner washers because they are most worn?

Is that the reason you guys have made opposite observations- in defining what an older razor is? I assumed Alex meant oldest razors and perhaps Glen was thinking all vintage razors in a group? If it is the oldest razors that do not have them.

I don't think the washer can help centering on an oversize tang pivot hole-it would have to be attached to the tang. Nor reduce wear as I dont feel the scale material will care much whether it rubs on brass or steel.

If the washer was formed so it had a burr or "tooth" to lock to the scale then it would function as a wear plate on the scale-maybe they did it like that. or maybe it is only a spacer.

Leaving a raised dai on the scale is pretty awesome craftsman delux methodology- that is a really cool observation. I like that

I have only scaled a few razors, only once using washers. there was a situation with that set very weak material and the spacer that leaves that one loose in the scales. The others are still working well without any extra parts.

Originally Posted by kevint

maybe the "older" razor has thinner washers because they are most worn?

As for the thickness of old washers, I don't think 'wear' makes them seem thinner. The washers people get from microfasteners (or similar) to generally use as this type of washer are about .017" if I recall. I haven't seen any vintage razor with washers that thick- most all are around .005" or less. Also, if the thin washers were only thin because they are worn, then there would be too much space between the scale and blade (material lost) and the blade would be loose. This isn't usually the case (in my experience). The washers would also only wear to the point of the scales being loose and then not wear anymore. I just think they used thinner washers for a reason, but I'm still not sure what that reason is. I prefer them aesthetically and think they give a razor a better opening/closing action than thicker washers do- but that's just me.

If I may ask about another point, and that is one concerning corrosion. Brass between two different materials like horn and steel tend to make electron transfer (corrosion, rust) less likely. I would think that would help with rust.


Take Care,
Richard