Thread: collarless pinning of Ivory

Originally Posted by Legion

While we are on the subject, why are most ivory scales washerless? Is there a reason for it? I would have thought that if ever a material needed a washer it would be a thin natural one prone to cracking.

I was wondering the exact same thing.

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Dimpling block would be nice,But I'm cheap,body and fender dolly,auto parts store < 5bux.
poke some dimples in it of various sizes with drill bits,done,works for me.

The trouble with a jeweller's dimpling block is that you can't hit the rivet head with the dimple... This is not a facetious comment. If the scale rests with the downward end of the rivet in the dimple, you will tend to get more deformity on the upper end, which you are actually hitting with the hammer.

The only way to deform them equally is to do it with slow, steady pressure, as in a press. It wouldn't be sufficiently confined to the two domed ends, as you would need in ivory (in fact a very light hammer will be deforming only a tiny cup-shaped "skin" on the outside of the rivet dome. Pressing will shorten and swell the shank of the rivet, which is great for ship's plates, except that it was a great fault to place the rivets too close together, as the internal swelling could make the plate tear along the dotted line. But the shank is out of sight, and lacks the control to avoid cracking the ivory.

The only way to deform just one head is to hit it lightly and repetitively with a hammer or punch, while the otherb end rests on a piece of nylon, lead, etc.

Originally Posted by Caledonian

I've just been making my own turned rivets from sterling silver, for an 1830s razor for which nickel silver is probably out of period.

Not really out of period - the silverless alloy known as german silver, nickel silver, argentan and cupro nickel has - at least in the last alloy named, been used for centuries.

Originally Posted by Legion

While we are on the subject, why are most ivory scales washerless? Is there a reason for it? I would have thought that if ever a material needed a washer it would be a thin natural one prone to cracking.

I don't know, but IMO ivory was not a common material but an upmarket one - even in the days of vast stockpiles of it, it was used for the more expensive razors rather than common horn for the everyday articles. Given that fact, that method of pinning was probably used because it took more skill to do, and is redolent of jewellers and fine jewellery, so it matched expensive scale material well.

Regards,
Neil

That is both true and untrue, although your reply has inspired me for the first time to look it up: Cupronickel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cupro-nickel alloys had been produced in Germany for centuries indeed, but they were smelted from mixed ores. At least in the early days, I doubt if people quite knew what they were making, when they produced a different and for most purposes better variety of brass. It became well understood, and commercially manufactured, in Europe, in the 1820s. But I think that would be for tableware etc., and I think it is true that rods, wires and rivets suited to the razor-maker weren't a common article of commerce until approximately mid-Victorian times. A razor from the 1830s is far more likely to be rivetted with brass, copper or silver.

Dunno,Maybe it's just me being a simpleton,I see no rocket science in Razor rivits.
I can make a perfectally servicable rivet out of a coat hanger

Caledonian - I don't think it is untrue - uproven maybe, but thats a question of semantics and speculation. Neither of us knows for sure - how could we? - so all we can do is speculate.

The chinese produced cupro-nickel - even if they didn't know the technicalities of how they were making it - many, many centuries ago. One of its names was white copper or white bronze, and it became widely exported. The peak european usage and importation of it was from 1750 - 1800: Queen Victoria wasn't born until 1819, so its use definitely predates victorian times!

Although it was used for the things you suggest, it was also used by jewellers, and making wire out of ingots by swaging or other means is a basic jewellers and smiths skill that goes back to at least ancient egyptian times. Places responsible for producing razors often had their own foundries, and certainly most of them had their own smiths. Forging and tempering were in-house everyday occurrences. Even in the 1900s places like Raggs were producing their own domed washers and metal inlays. Why buy things in when you can make them in-house?

Like Pixelfixed jokingly suggests, its not rocket science.

Regards,
Neil

I decided to give it a go. Old School! I cut some pieces of Ivory from a broken scale and drilled them 1/16 and slightly chamfered the outside of the holes with a larger bit. I put it all together and sized my pin where I thought it should be. I then removed the pin and held it in the middle with needlenosed pliers and heated each end with a propane torch until the flame changed color a bit, and immediately dunked it in water, one side at a time. I reinstalled the pin and proceeded with light taps on one side until it began to mushroom. I was tapping on the side as much as I could to try and dome the pin. After a bit, I turned it over and pushed the pin through and did the other side. I wondered at some point if I had made the pin too long, but it turned out I had it about right to begin with, I continued tapping at a slant and had to move the hammer often to keep the face high and off the ivory. At some point it started to get tight in the scales, so I made sure the pin was centered at that point and continued with the process. I was using very light taps and actually hit the ivory some, but I kept the tapping so light, It would not have broken the ivory. Flipping and tappin, keeping moving and paying attention to my hammer, eventually it all worked well. I tried to see how tight I could get it! Really tight! I then buffed the pins and am very happy with the function and looks! Now to try it on some nice scales!

That is mostly right, and excellent work. But you would reduce the nerve strain and the difficulty of estimating the right length of pin, if you peened and shaped the domed head on one end before putting the pin in place. A keyed electric drill chuck, used as a vice, would hold it tightly enough.

Great job,I think chamfering the pin hole is the key to success with Ivory. can be funny stuff.

Originally Posted by Caledonian

That is mostly right, and excellent work. But you would reduce the nerve strain and the difficulty of estimating the right length of pin, if you peened and shaped the domed head on one end before putting the pin in place. A keyed electric drill chuck, used as a vice, would hold it tightly enough.

Good advise! I had tried to do it in the past, but using a vise. It slightly deformed the pin and I was afraid it would lead to a bent pin. The drill chuck in a vise sounds cool. A small spacer pin on the inside for the pin to bottom out on would require less pressure needed to hold it tight as well. Thanks!

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Great job,I think chamfering the pin hole is the key to success with Ivory. can be funny stuff.

I felt better about it. I also wonder if chamfering the inside of the hole would be a good idea? Could not hurt! I was amazed at how tight the pin got inside the Ivory! The pins really swell up as you lightly peen. I wondered if slightly oversizing the pin holes would be a good idea, but all the ones I have disassembled were not, at least that I could tell. What are your thoughts on that? Thanks!