Thread: Katana-Kagi (swordsmith) asking for input

Originally Posted by D.Sweet

I would have to disagree with this statement.
I would say that it is more something that is up to the smith's discretion. Does it seriously affect a razors ability to shave? No. But it does allow for a more comfortable feel in hand and slightly changes your hand placement during the shave. Making a quick mock up of a straight tang vs bent one i end up having less of a bend in my wrist with the bent tang.

I have seen variations in the shape of the handle on kamisori from the same maker which leads me to believe it is a question of finish rather than anything else. I personally do not see any reason the handle should not be straight though.

I find both styles invoke different respocnes in me.. I enjoy my western str8ts in an entirely diffferent manner than my kamisoris... But like I have posted in the past, shaving to me is a zen thing... Not just a persoonal hygiene requirement.... It has to do with the whole personal time/ meditation moment i get out of my day.. So i do see you point on th kamisori... I love breaking out the urigorami jnat, doing a palm strop and enjoying the complex close shave....
But, more importantly...How do you sit like that? What are you some kind of wandering kung fu panda? If I tried that it would take a medical using the jaws of life to unfold me...

just MHO.... but i highly doubt in a culture such as the japanese that people who take the time to MASTER the art of metal working... and have been known to take their own lives to keep from being shamed....

i find it hard to believe they would do anything by "accident" or that they would leave handle offset to chance or happenstance...........

every move they make and everything they do has a purpose... there are no wasted motions or efforts... this is a masters way.....

Originally Posted by paco664

just MHO.... but i highly doubt in a culture such as the japanese that people who take the time to MASTER the art of metal working... and have been known to take their own lives to keep from being shamed....

i find it hard to believe they would do anything by "accident" or that they would leave handle offset to chance or happenstance...........

every move they make and everything they do has a purpose... there are no wasted motions or efforts... this is a masters way.....

ye sit is very common, superb blades with poor fit and finish when it comes to handles and so on. there are of course many examples of perfect craftsmanship on all accounts too.

Originally Posted by Wintchase

I find both styles invoke different respocnes in me.. I enjoy my western str8ts in an entirely diffferent manner than my kamisoris... But like I have posted in the past, shaving to me is a zen thing... Not just a persoonal hygiene requirement.... It has to do with the whole personal time/ meditation moment i get out of my day.. So i do see you point on th kamisori... I love breaking out the urigorami jnat, doing a palm strop and enjoying the complex close shave....
But, more importantly...How do you sit like that? What are you some kind of wandering kung fu panda? If I tried that it would take a medical using the jaws of life to unfold me...

I do have the klutch part of Kung Fu Panda totally mastered. I learned to sit like that from practicing Kendo and Iaido

I understand the Zen thing. Anything can be a Zen pursuit. It is more important to stay focus though when a very sharp blade is involved.

Not strictly relevant I suppose, but mentioned here already... Have I correctly understood that Japanese wood planes are bevelled on the front surface? Western ones are bevelled on the rear (i.e. with the bevel angled only a little more highly in use than the sole of the plane. The rear surface is stoned only along its length, to remove a wire edge.

I don't see any reason not to do the opposite, since good western planes usually have a bevelled wedge adjusted to be just behind the edge, in order to make the shaving curl upwards. It always amazes me how often the Japanese do things the other way around from us, and yet it works. There are advantages to having a wood saw which you pull, as it can be thinner and have less offset teeth without buckling or jamming, but I think the man who knows where he is going would be better off rowing a boat facing to the rear. But for planes, I think the two systems would be about equal.

Originally Posted by Caledonian

Not strictly relevant I suppose, but mentioned here already... Have I correctly understood that Japanese wood planes are bevelled on the front surface? Western ones are bevelled on the rear (i.e. with the bevel angled only a little more highly in use than the sole of the plane. The rear surface is stoned only along its length, to remove a wire edge.

Well-No

First lets clear up the Front/Omote-Back/Ura thing.

In both western and Japanese planes the bevel is on the side that contacts the body of the plane. The flat part is what contacts the wood first just as you described for the "rear" of a western plane. In truth it can be either way. Some low angle block planes have the bevel on the side that contacts the wood first and the side opposite is flat.

So in Japanese planes which are pulled towards the user the side facing the user is the Ura or Back and the side opposite is the Omote or front. Seems counter intuitive but that is the way it is.

In Japanese terminology anyway the bevel side is the front/Omote and the flat side is the Back/Ura

On Nihon Kamisori it is the same. The bevel side side is the Omote/Front and the flat side (The big ole concave grind is the only there to remove excess metal and make creating the small flat easier) is the Ura/Back

If you want to be more confusing the Front/Omote side of a sword is the side opposite the body when worn and is the side where the smith places his signature-However early swords known as Tachi where worn edge down and later swords where worn edge up so the front was different depending on the type of sword. Then add the fact that many Tachi (which were usually very long for fighting from horseback) were later shortened and worn as katana for fighting on foot. So, the Omote and Ura could change on an individual sword.


I hope everything is now very clear

Originally Posted by Danocon

Well-No

First lets clear up the Front/Omote-Back/Ura thing.

In both western and Japanese planes the bevel is on the side that contacts the body of the plane. The flat part is what contacts the wood first just as you described for the "rear" of a western plane. In truth it can be either way. Some low angle block planes have the bevel on the side that contacts the wood first and the side opposite is flat.

So in Japanese planes which are pulled towards the user the side facing the user is the Ura or Back and the side opposite is the Omote or front. Seems counter intuitive but that is the way it is.

In Japanese terminology anyway the bevel side is the front/Omote and the flat side is the Back/Ura

On Nihon Kamisori it is the same. The bevel side side is the Omote/Front and the flat side (The big ole concave grind is the only there to remove excess metal and make creating the small flat easier) is the Ura/Back

If you want to be more confusing the Front/Omote side of a sword is the side opposite the body when worn and is the side where the smith places his signature-However early swords known as Tachi where worn edge down and later swords where worn edge up so the front was different depending on the type of sword. Then add the fact that many Tachi (which were usually very long for fighting from horseback) were later shortened and worn as katana for fighting on foot. So, the Omote and Ura could change on an individual sword.


I hope everything is now very clear

As swords are almost invariably symmetrical, it doesn't much matter what we call the two sides. But with a plane iron it seems quite adequately cleared up that the front is the side that comes first as the plane moves in its working stroke.