Thread: Iwasaki - breadknifing - Jim Rion - translation correction

Here is the relevant part regarding honing time.

3-Honing Time
Many people think that when they hone on coarse abrasives, they should spend a lot of time, then
gradually reduce their honing time as they move to finer honing. However, in reality, the opposite is
true: they should be gradually increasing the time. When you hone with pressure on coarse
particles, you not only remove chips in the edge, but also wear away the steel of the spine and
blade. Honing time for both Kamisori and razors should be divided as follows:
(1) Coarse honing - Botan Nagura - 3-4 minutes
(2) Middle honing - Tenjou Nagura - 4-5 minutes
(3) Finishing - Tomonagura - 5-6 minutes
(4) False Edge removal - Raxa hone - 10 seconds
(5) Edge Finishing - Honyama Hone - Japanese made folding razor 10 min; Kamisori/Imported
Razor/Iwasaki Razor 15 minutes.
In the above, most people might not notice that the final step, "Edge Finishing," takes 10-15
minutes. But when you try it, it will become clear.

Also remember that he is not talking about using a man made hone like the Norton 4/8 because the Norton is much, much, much more aggressive than a Japanese natural without any slurry. As we know a hard Japanese natural finishing stone used without a slurry is almost as slow as a very smooth Arkansas surgical black stone ......
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and he is not talking about a razor with any sort of "smile" on the edge....
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and I find it very difficult to make 1mm - 2 mm movements, how about you?

Back in a few minutes

BTW, Utopian was kind enough to give me a call and chat about this, thanks Ron

Originally Posted by randydance062449

BTW, Utopian was kind enough to give me a call and chat about this, thanks Ron

It's quite rare for me to have the opportunity to tell you why you are wrong!

Originally Posted by randydance062449

BTW, Utopian was kind enough to give me a call and chat about this, thanks Ron

Originally Posted by Utopian

It's quite rare for me to have the opportunity to tell you why you are wrong!

Not to worry Randy, I was wrong once myself, happens to the best of us ................

Ok, I have just re-read the Iwasaki document.

Jim Rions correction to his interpretation/translation makes it clear that Iwasaki was not speaking of jointing/breadknifing. Here is the best version posted on his blog
================================================== =====
Honing Razors and Nihonkamisori: Updated.
Posted by Jim Rion in Fundamentals, Honing, Iwasaki, Kamisori, Straight Razors, Toishi
I made a translation error, of course.

On my recent visit to Iwasaki-san, I asked him about the particularly confusing section, 3.5 Edge Finishing.

What I translated as "standing" should have been translated as "lengthwise."

Instead of honing the razor standing, you hone it flat but pull it parallel to the edge...meaning, not forward or backward, but sideways, 1mm or 2mm.
================================================== ==========

This makes it abundantly clear. the razor is laid flat on the stone just as we do with normal edge leading honing. The direction is different. Instead of edge leading ( left to right, east/west) it is
now north/south .

A video/graphic would be best. Can anyone find a video on YouTube that shows this? Send/post a link please.
Thanks


To me the issue of Iwasaki suggesting jointing is now completely discredited. It is also against what a lot of us have learned from experience/observation.


Regarding Iwasaki's suggestion for honing time .....

I found it interesting that he started with the assumption that the work was being done on a previously honed razor that was no longer giving a very good shave. It was not an antique store find that needed major work nor was it in need of any chip/nick removal. This made it unnecessary to recreate a bevel from scratch. He only needed to "refresh" the bevel and thus the short amount of time
spent on the coarser stones, none of which cut very fast . Lets remember he is not using manmade artificial stones that cut much faster. so that accounts for the length of time which would be much shorter if he used the artificial stones.

RE the 10-15 minutes final step

That really made me raise my eyebrows in surprise. I did not remember seeing that when I read this document when it first came out. But, there it is. So why that long of a time?
I think it is explained by several things

1. He is using a hard, fine Japanese natural stone without any slurry. These cut so very slowly and he is making such short strokes with very light pressure ( almost none, weight of razor only) that remove very little steel .

2. He may be honing a razor that has been heat treated properly and thus demands more time.

3. I suspect that his previous steps did not refine the edge sufficiently and thereby required more time on the last finishing . This is what I think is most likely and I think he does this deliberately. It gives him more control over the end result.

4. And as Onimaru55 has correctly pointed out Iwasaki had to remove the slight rounding created by the chrome oxide removing the false edge.

Originally Posted by randydance062449

This makes it abundantly clear. the razor is laid flat on the stone just as we do with normal edge leading honing. The direction is different. Instead of edge leading ( left to right, east/west) it is
now north/south . A video would be best. Can anyone find a video on YouTube that shows this?

Action is here @ about 9.50 mins in. I do believe it is limited to straight edges like planes, chisels & wa-kamisori but it's a common technique.
I remember watching So hone a plane blade with a similar stroke but ofc with his fingers above the edge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFMHWpi9gdc

Tell you what, that guy, whoever he is, ain't lapping none of my stones ! I'll say no more about that.

I think that demonstration beginning at the 9 minute + mark explains the 2mm movement portion of Iwasaki's text. So while he is moving fore and aft with the one motion, he is also moving sideways. A picture really is worth a thousand words, particularly a moving picture. Many thanks to Randy for bringing the corrected translation, and Oz for the video.

May I add that if anyone wants to discuss alternative methods or the pro & cons of jointing that they please start a separate thread.

This thread was to discuss what Iwasaki said about jointing and the answer is .....

NOTHING!

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Tell you what, that guy, whoever he is, ain't lapping none of my stones ! I'll say no more about that.

Why not Jimmy? He's chamfering the sides as he laps