Thread: HAD begins: DMT D8XX for Shapton 16k?

Originally Posted by Chris L

Contrary to what seems to be a burgeoning belief, you can lap Shapton ceramic on glass plates with a DMT D8C perfectly fine. Having owned and used both the D8C and the GDLP, I can say the D8C is more than up to the task. I'd hate to see guys hesitate on buying Shapton stones because they think they have to buy the GDLP to make them work.

Chris L

You bring up a very valid point. But honestly, if you are going to own SEVERAL Shapton Glass Hones-in some cases ALMOST ALL of the system-including the 30K- Why not buy the plate DESIGNED for them?

None of us,IIRC, have not owned the Shapton's long enough to really know if the DGLP makes a difference,especially when the abrasive material gets very thin. I've already experienced enough distortion in my 16K plate to make it unusable without lapping and its only 2 months old. I'm not trying to justify the price,it is what it isBut, don't we literally spend hours discussing honing and part of that discussion is the ability to get the most performance out of the hones we are using? But, if the Shapton's need to be lapped prior to EACH use-AND you can't afford the DGLP, the DMT D8C is the answer- , its gotta be better than using 320 Wet/dry

When HAD rears its ugly head-Why do,when you overdo

Some real info is available over at that Shapton website however you actually have to look for it in the forum page link...
I know that some of the people that have responded to this thread have done extensive research on the Shaptons....
If you actually start digging you will find that many of the Shapton users do recommend a very smooth almost slick surface on the 4k and above stones..
This seems to coincide with my experiences on the stones too, I have been using the 16k for quite awhile now, that was the first one I added to my honing stable..
When I first got it, I was lapping it on the Norton lapping stone, guess what it works just fine, but you had to smooth it out after that, and the best way I found was rubbing it against a Norton 8k....

So to be a true politician here and cover both sides of the debate

You can lap the Shapton with just about anything, but I would suggest you figure some way to get the 4k grit stones and above really smooth to get the most out of them....
However, I would also say now that I have the complete set, with the GDLP/DGLP (both ways seems right) that yes, it is a system, and it does work best that way.....

I would also point out that most of what I read is loaded with warnings about lapping natural stones on the GDLP...
Maybe ChrisL could elaborate more on that since he has probably done more research than most of us on that plate...

it sure could save a heap of digging with a not to good search engine if you had some links to relative posts

Originally Posted by kevint

it sure could save a heap of digging with a not to good search engine if you had some links to relative posts

Ummmmm Kevin isn't that you that is a member over there too????
and honestly I am really not all that good on computers but I will try


OK here is the main one Shapton® Stones

The forum that is loaded with info http://www.japanesetools.com/phpBB2/

Thanks for the information guys. My previous setup was a DMT8EE and a four sided strop with diamond pastes down to 0.25. I used the the DMT8EE then the 16K yesterday and pasted from 0.5 to 0.25 stropped about a 100 times and the shave was incredible, HUGE difference.

Right now I can not justify the DGLP, but for all you pros I understand going that route. This 16K plate will be probably used about dozen times a year. It is an incredible engineering achievement, polishes quickly, and gives an incredibly edge. For all you guys wanting to make a jump from a starting setup like I have it is a very good choice and a very reasonable investment. The fairly large investement in razors that I seem to be acquiring kinda justifies the $107 that I paid for this plate.


Once again,thanks guys,
Richard

But what does the GDLP do that the D8C does not? As far as I can tell, it just has decreased stiction but isn't necessarily any flatter. And then there are DMTs that have recessed holes as well for about the same price as the diasharp series, I haven't tried them but the principle is the same.

The fact that it's part of the system means very little, flat is flat and if other methods will get you to the same end result, what's the difference?

And what's all this about the glass stones warping? I think I would consider that unacceptable if I were the manufacturer and was charging as much as they do for them, being as no other hone/stone out there warps.

End of mini-rant.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Ummmmm Kevin isn't that you that is a member over there too????
and honestly I am really not all that good on computers but I will try


OK here is the main one Shapton® Stones

The forum that is loaded with info Japanese Woodworking Forums :: Index

I was asking for specific threads that dealt with extra smooth surfaces
even an op or some terms to narrow the search

as I dont recall reading anything like that

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

But what does the GDLP do that the D8C does not? As far as I can tell, it just has decreased stiction but isn't necessarily any flatter. And then there are DMTs that have recessed holes as well for about the same price as the diasharp series, I haven't tried them but the principle is the same.

The fact that it's part of the system means very little, flat is flat and if other methods will get you to the same end result, what's the difference?

And what's all this about the glass stones warping? I think I would consider that unacceptable if I were the manufacturer and was charging as much as they do for them, being as no other hone/stone out there warps.

End of mini-rant.

Its not a case of warping per se. The fact is that the polymer used in suspending the abrasive material does indeed change shape. This is not speculation, but indeed fact. The system is designed to be used with the DGLP, which will resolve any issue of flatness as well as prepare the stone by removing all remaining metal particles. It has nothing to do with quality control. I am only repeating information I received from a very qualified knowledgeable source. The lapping plate is to be used EACH and EVERY time the stone is used....

Jeez, this sounds just like all the major ink jet printer manufacturers who claim that only THEIR ink is suitable for their printers... It took legislation to get them to smarten up and you can now use non oem inks without voiding your warranty. Ditto for having your oil changed on your car at a local service station rather than at the original dealer where you bought the car from... and heavens to megatroid... can you imagine... using a different brand of motor oil?!?!?! And should I mention the various replacement blade/cartridge razors and what their makers say about "their systems"? Only Gillette knows how to make a 3 bladed cartridge to fit properly on their handle and give you a proper shave... heck, they eluded to that back in the DE days..... Come to think of it, what about those straight razor manufacturers who also sold touch up hones, remember... they said it was surest way to insure your razor would give you many years of service.

Now, I don't have the facts at my finger tips but I seem to recall that the GDLP arrived *after* they began selling the glass hones and I'm pretty sure that at the time when the Pro stones were the most common, the standard was the compact lapping plate w/loose powders. It is still just as suitable today as it was back then..... The only real difference is that the loose powder makes a mess and it's less convenient.

As for the shape shifting hone.... it was a much larger problem with the Pro stones as they had no backing to support them. Even then it wasn't a huge problem but you really didn't want to soak your hones overnight.

When it comes to the use of a diamond lapping plate each and every time I go to hone a razor.... no thanks, I prefer to get full use out of my abrasives before grinding them off in a fruitless attempt at improving their honing ability. The hones need to be reasonably flat and reasonably clean..... you *can* obsess over this and take it to the ultimate *clean room* level... I suppose you could flatten the hone between each stroke, thus keeping it perfectly flat and perfectly clean but you would have to rinse the slurry off the hone and this would allow the matrix to absorb more water before you begin the honing stroke.... of course I assume you use absolutely pure distilled water! I mean, if there were ANY impurities at all in the water... even dust particles that fell out of the air, they would interfere with the near single digit micron accuracy some of us seem to strive for. I know I often feel a bump here and there which turns out to be a small piece of lint or a tiny piece of hair. A quick check on Wikipedia shows that dust mite poop would positively blow any hope of accuracy out of the water as they list it as "10-24 µm — dust mite excreta"!

Oh, and you had better be careful when using water on the Shapton hones.... If the hone is flat before you start putting water on it, the temperature drop on the side that gets spritzed with water will cause the hone to warp.... it only takes a few degrees of temperature change on such a thin object to cause it to warp several thousands of an inch. A gent wrote about lapping and scraping a woodworking plane he had purchased. He was an experienced machinest/die maker and knew what he was doing. During the course of scraping, you use a transfer dye on a granite plate to see where the high spots are on the item you are working on (in this case the plane). You have to clean the dye off after scraping so you can redo the transfer test. The gent mentioned had just switched from his usual lighter fluid for cleaning to a water based cleaning product made for the same purpose. After an afternoon of scraping and checking, he was finally happy with the flatness and cleaned the plane up and called it a day. The following morning, he decided to double check the flatness of the plane.... low and behold, it had turned into a banana with it being out 0.006" in the middle of the sole... the cause was the fluid used for cleaning... the water based cleaner removed more heat than the usual lighter fluid and that was more than enough to cause the heavy steel plane to warp 6 thousands of an inch. That is why I take the accuracy claims of the DGLP with a large pinch of salt... so large in fact that I have to take high blood pressure medication!

Shapton hones are great, I love them! The DGLP is a wonderful design, it looks really cool and it's probably as accurate in use as the DMT or other brand of diamond honing plates (note, I don't care for the DMT plastic cored hones... too much chance of flexing for my tastes), and those neat grooves and depressions do allow air to get between it and the hone and thus deals with the stiction issue but I've never found that to be a problem for me as I don't lap my hones every three seconds... but if I sold Shapton hones, it wouldn't bother me in the least if my customers did just that... heck, honing razors alone will make those Shapton hones last an awful long time..........

Well, I think I've said enough about Shaptons and their DGLP.... I know I'll end up buying one of their diamond plates some day but not because I need it... only because I'll have more money than brains that day and I like having cool looking things... even if they don't do anything more than what I already have. So... until I win the lottery, I'll happily continue using my well worn DMT D8C for lapping my Shaptons *when they need it* and my shaves will continue to be just as I like them.


Regards

Kaptain "Curmudgeon..... with a bad attitude!" Zero

Originally Posted by Lt.Arclight

Its not a case of warping per se. The fact is that the polymer used in suspending the abrasive material does indeed change shape. This is not speculation, but indeed fact. The system is designed to be used with the DGLP, which will resolve any issue of flatness as well as prepare the stone by removing all remaining metal particles. It has nothing to do with quality control. I am only repeating information I received from a very qualified knowledgeable source. The lapping plate is to be used EACH and EVERY time the stone is used....

Lt. I know you're not advocating that someone who may want to buy a Shapton for the first time, maybe a 16K, must buy the GDLP (as an aside: I always refer to this plate as the GDLP rather than the DGLP only because the box its packaged in clearly states: "Glass Diamond Lapping Plate".

But, tomato "tomahto".

It's a well designed lapping plate and it works like a charm. However, my biggest concern here, and Kaptain Zero shares it, is that no one should be under the impression that a person needs the GDLP to lap the Shapton stones effectively. That's simply not true. Actually, I'm rather liking "topping off" my higher grit Shaptons with the DMT D8F 600 grit plate. It gives my 16K an even smoooooother feel than a 325 grit plate.

I would not discourage anyone from buying the GDLP. The fact is though, it's pricey. For about $15 more, a person can buy all six DMT 8" plates from 120 grit all the way up to their 8000 grit plate. That puts it in a bit more perspective for the budget minded.

I thought my GDLP worked beautifully in lapping my natural higher grit stones until my GDLP petered out on my for whatever reason. So I think at this point, and due mainly to my experience, the GDLP is being stressed by Shapton dealers as being used with Shaptons only.

Lt, these guys will tell you, there probably has not been a more outspoken proponent for the GDLP than myself even prior to when Shapton was an established and often owned product among our members (I certainly wasn't close to being a pioneer with the Shapton stones since a core group of members has had Shapton stones for quite a long time). For awhile, I was even on the ".001 flatness with your DMT plates? Ha, my .5 micron flatness and I both spit on you!". Ok, ok, maybe I wasn't THAT bad or, thankfully, I kept those thoughts at that time to myself.

I'll reiterate my biggest point here is the Shaptons can be lapped perfectly fine with the DMT D8C for those that would like to try a Shapton stone now. The GDLP is not a necessary component. Convenient, easy to use, well designed and a great all around performer? Certainly. But not essential.

Finally, I do find that lapping my Shaptons from 500 grit to 4000 grit prior to using them seems to make for better honing, more feedback. But I find that 6k, 8k, 16k work well without pre-lapping before each session. Especially the 16K. 20-50 laps on the 16K for an edge that's seen months of use without the 16K being lapped prior to use and ZINGO that edge is buttery smooth, sharp and ready for shave after comfortable shave again. Just my personal experience.

Chris L