Thread: Vintage Coticule?

I don't know the answer to that either. I have a really nice vintage natural and it is a great hone but my favorite coticule is a natural of recent vintage. A friend sold it to me. He got it from Howard at the Perfect Edge and I assume Howard got it from Rob at Ardennes Coticule. I asked Rob the same question on vintage versus current production and here was his reply. If you want to read the whole thread there is a lot of good info in it and it is here .

I don't think coticules were as desirable as gold or other precious metals (even though they are worth more to me!), so they weren't mined as heavily, and consequently, not used up.

As far as garnet content in older stones being higher... I don't buy it. Hell, it's all about the same age, it's just when it was dug up.

"Vintage" coticule vs. new....pfft.

I have nine vintage combo coticules and one that is, as Jimmy oddly put it, a "natural of recent vintage." Every one of them is different. Each one of them behaves slightly differently because of the simple fact that each of them actually is different. New or old, if your hone does not share saw marks with one of my hones, then your hone is going to be different from mine.
They're all different.
That is the nature of a natural hone, also known as a piece of ROCK.

The only reason why I think that there are people saying that vintage Coticule stones are better for straight razor use then new Coticule stones is the following:

Most of the vintage Coticule stones that you guys find on eBay or in your local antique store are stones used by barbers or by private straight razor users. The Coticule miner companies from 100 years ago selected these stones specially for the use of straight razors. Before World War 2 there was a large exportation of Coticule stones for straight razor use to the USA and UK. So most of the vintage Coticule stones you guys are finding in the USA and UK are perfect stones for straight razors!

After World Ward 2 there only was a small exportation to the USA and this came to an end around 1960-1980. Around 1960 the last mine closed and in the '80's the last quarry went broke. So a lot of the Coticule knowledge disappeared (knowledge in terms of 'which Coticule is good for which use').

We, Ardennes Coticule, officially restarted the last quarry in 1998 and are planning to re-open the last mine in 2009. In our family (Ardennes Coticule is a family business) we have a lot of knowledge about quarrying and mining (The Coticule quarry and mine aren't our first quarry and mine) but we didn't had much knowledge about the Coticule stone (both in terms of the use and the distribution world wide).

So in the very beginning we sold every Coticule for every purpose. None of our family members knew that for example straight razor users preferred softer stones and wood workers the harder ones!
We had to learn all this from unsatisfied customers, from talks with Coticule users from the old days and so on ... .
The Coticule stones sold by us in the beginning of our company are Coticule stones from an excellent quality but were sold for the wrong purpose (example: not soft enough for straight razor use)!
But that's the past. Right now costumers have to specify the purpose of their stone and they will receive the right Coticule stone!
All the stones sold by our USA and UK distributors for straight razor use are excellent for that very purpose and are even good as the vintage Coticule stones!

But keep in mind that we are working with natural stones! All the stones are unique and sometimes we have Coticule stones that are extremely soft and that contain a very high concentration of garnets.
If you got a vintage Coticule like this you could easily say that it's better than a 'new' Coticule but you can also find a vintage Coticule which is harder and/or contains less garnets then a 'newer' one.
So I'm sure you guys understand that there are Coticule stones floating around in the straight razor community that are less suitable for this use. Are these stones bad? No, they are excellent Coticule stones, but not suitable for straight razor use.

It all depends on the vein from which the Coticule comes!

More info: Coticule Layer Round Up - Part 1 (Warning - 62 pictures) - Badger & Blade

Amen to that. My first coticule gave me a very dissapointing experience, to the point where I almost gave up on coticules completely.
But the low dollar persuaded me to buy a big one (I like 'em big from howard, specifically for the purpose of razor honing. And I have been very happy with it.

My older coticule is really unsuitable as a finishing stone, but it now has a place on the windowsill above the kitchen sink. Everytime I use a chefs knife or fruit knife, I give it 10 laps on the yellow and then a couple on the blue. And my kitchen knives are scary sharp since. It is a quick, easy and nice way to maintain them.

So I am pretty sure that all coticules are ok, but just not for the same purpose.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Amen to that. My first coticule gave me a very dissapointing experience, to the point where I almost gave up on coticules completely.
But the low dollar persuaded me to buy a big one (I like 'em big from howard, specifically for the purpose of razor honing. And I have been very happy with it.

My older coticule is really unsuitable as a finishing stone, but it now has a place on the windowsill above the kitchen sink. Everytime I use a chefs knife or fruit knife, I give it 10 laps on the yellow and then a couple on the blue. And my kitchen knives are scary sharp since. It is a quick, easy and nice way to maintain them.

So I am pretty sure that all coticules are ok, but just not for the same purpose.

I actually had the same experience with the one "vintage" natural combo coticule I have on hand. It cuts pretty fast and rough (especially compared to the Spyderco UF), and I have to hone under running water to "polish" with it or it will wreck a final edge.

That being said, once I got the hang of it, I grew to really like that stone.

I am getting another one from ArdennesCoticule pretty soon, so it will be fun to compare the 2 in a honing head to head.

I also got one from Howard, an 8x3, soft as butter, very nice stone.

I think there's one other reason for this vintage-coticules-are-better theme. There was a particular mine that was highly revered that closed somewhere around the end of the nineteenth century. The mine had a French name I can't remember, but coticules from this vein were called "old rock" or "deep rock." Some of the old geological textbooks from the 1920s or thereabouts say in essence 'they don't make 'em like they used to.' I think some of the old barber's textbooks from that period also say something of the sort, and maybe even Arthur Boon's (?) I seem to recall...

This meme seems to have filtered into modern discussion of coticules, but the comparison is dated, having to do with hones from the early part of the 20th century vs. hones from the 19th. There are new veins since. In fact, it seems likely that many of what we call "vintage coticules" are from the period that wasn't supposed to be so good.

Originally Posted by ArdennesCoticule

The only reason why I think that there are people saying that vintage Coticule stones are better for straight razor use then new Coticule stones is the following:

Most of the vintage Coticule stones that you guys find on eBay or in your local antique store are stones used by barbers or by private straight razor users. The Coticule miner companies from 100 years ago selected these stones specially for the use of straight razors. Before World War 2 there was a large exportation of Coticule stones for straight razor use to the USA and UK. So most of the vintage Coticule stones you guys are finding in the USA and UK are perfect stones for straight razors!

After World Ward 2 there only was a small exportation to the USA and this came to an end around 1960-1980. Around 1960 the last mine closed and in the '80's the last quarry went broke. So a lot of the Coticule knowledge disappeared (knowledge in terms of 'which Coticule is good for which use').

We, Ardennes Coticule, officially restarted the last quarry in 1998 and are planning to re-open the last mine in 2009. In our family (Ardennes Coticule is a family business) we have a lot of knowledge about quarrying and mining (The Coticule quarry and mine aren't our first quarry and mine) but we didn't had much knowledge about the Coticule stone (both in terms of the use and the distribution world wide).

So in the very beginning we sold every Coticule for every purpose. None of our family members knew that for example straight razor users preferred softer stones and wood workers the harder ones!
We had to learn all this from unsatisfied customers, from talks with Coticule users from the old days and so on ... .
The Coticule stones sold by us in the beginning of our company are Coticule stones from an excellent quality but were sold for the wrong purpose (example: not soft enough for straight razor use)!
But that's the past. Right now costumers have to specify the purpose of their stone and they will receive the right Coticule stone!
All the stones sold by our USA and UK distributors for straight razor use are excellent for that very purpose and are even good as the vintage Coticule stones!

But keep in mind that we are working with natural stones! All the stones are unique and sometimes we have Coticule stones that are extremely soft and that contain a very high concentration of garnets.
If you got a vintage Coticule like this you could easily say that it's better than a 'new' Coticule but you can also find a vintage Coticule which is harder and/or contains less garnets then a 'newer' one.
So I'm sure you guys understand that there are Coticule stones floating around in the straight razor community that are less suitable for this use. Are these stones bad? No, they are excellent Coticule stones, but not suitable for straight razor use.

It all depends on the vein from which the Coticule comes!

More info: Coticule Layer Round Up - Part 1 (Warning - 62 pictures) - Badger & Blade

Thanks Rob!

it drives me crazy when I here guys talking about how much better the older stones are when age really makes no difference, it's the stone. A new stone can be better than the older one, just depends on the vein. Thanks again...Rich

Originally Posted by Utopian

I have nine vintage combo coticules and one that is, as Jimmy oddly put it, a "natural of recent vintage."

Big LOL I had to sit here a minute and figure out why "natural of recent vintage" was "oddly put". Indeed the rock is as old as the that of earlier vintage. I should have said recently quarried or harvested.

Obviously Ron does not have a problem with HAD. He has nine vintage combo coticules ....... like any normal person.