Thread: Fin: fact or fiction?

WONDER PHOTOS REVEAL UNSUSPECTED FACTS ABOUT Razor Blades and Shaving

Here are some pretty good pictures of the effect of stropping. It appears that stropping smoothes the edge. I don't see any real evidence of a "fin" type structure from these photos . . .

Gents, i was going to try again.

Bart you got me going in that pasted strop thread. I thought yeah there is always a bur- Right?

Does the fin image comes from page 3 of JV's paper, fig 2. (B)? It does in my mind

What I had forgotten is fig.2 (A). He says these are the types of burrs we get in the absence of fold over burs, or differ from fold-overs. I called it a micro bur earlier


If it were a little fin that I might fold over via some steeling like action- I would change what I do perhaps. (if durable enough. That would greatly reduce the EM

I'm a little confused by this thread, but that may have to do with my lack of expert knowledge.

I always thought the traditional explanation of plain stropping is that it smooths the edge, in other words aligns the "teeth" formed at the very edge by any honing medium's scratch pattern.

That it isn't abrasive enough to remove material would seem to be evidenced by the fact that no plain strop, no matter how old or how much it's been used, is darkened by steel particles the way pasted strops are. At least no plain strop I've ever laid eyes on.

The very edge of a well-honed razor is very thin and delicate, by definition. Just how delicate will vary according to the properties of the steel and the skill of the honer.

We can choose to think of this most delicate area, these teeth that get distorted or frayed by shaving, as a thing unto itself and name it a fin. Or we can think of it as simply part of the bevel, the most delicate part, and not call it anything special. But these are linguistic and conceptual choices, not empirical questions about whether something exists or is "magic." Right? Or am I missing something about the stakes of this discussion?

I think that is the way I see the problem. I think others are trying to negate the theory that there is an actual "fin" like structure that protrudes from the bevel.

I'm not sure that the "fin" is a physical thing (such as a protrusion) but more of a condition of sharpened steel.

So the argument may be about whether there is a "condition" at the edge of a bevel.

I think in the end we have to have a word for the sharp edge of the end of the bevel.

Alan, thanks for the link. Nice reference.

That article seems to make a lot of sense. (If I was gonna' vote, now I like door #2...)

Yea, I liked that article too. Its always nice when we have simple answers.

Originally Posted by Quick

Depends on how you're envisioning the "fin". I think you're implying that the "fin" section of the edge has less of an angle than the main portion of the bevel (the "Y" shape"). Consider that the "fin" in the pictures may have MORE of an angle than the main portion of the bevel.

No, I'm not defending the Y-hypothesis. I think the very edge (why not call that part "fin"?) is always convexed. But it's so thin that it bends and looses alignment from use.

Originally Posted by Quick

1) Surely there is some abrasive quality to a strop. There is *some* abrasive quality to any material. Couldn't you explain the pictures just as well by speculating that the fine silvery edge you see is simply a "double bevel" created by stropping? The leather strop being supple would be deflected a bit by the edge and have more of an angle than the more rigid surface of the hone. The angle of the "fin" would be greater in that case.

Sure, I'm not denying any of that.

Originally Posted by Quick

2) The bevel will have decreasing "structural capacity" (<-- descriptive term) as the cross section narrows moving towards the edge. Cutting hairs and just running the blade across your skin will do some damage. Stropping it (see 1. above) could repair this to some extent.

My point exactly.

Originally Posted by Quick

I believe everyone is using the term "fin" to describe some portion of the edge that has significantly less angle than the bevel. The "Y" shape. Some flexible/floppy flat piece of steel extending significantly further from the edge than the point where the two sides of the bevel would meet. I'm not buying it.

I'm not saying that either. But I do believe that the fin part of the edge (the part that's affected by stropping) has not the original steel structure, due to the physical processes present while honing and stropping. But even when you disagree with that, I still think "fin" is a valid linguistic term for "the thinest part of the edge". And that the special measures that part of the edge calls for, is the main reason why we use a clean leather strop.

Originally Posted by dylandog

That it isn't abrasive enough to remove material would seem to be evidenced by the fact that no plain strop, no matter how old or how much it's been used, is darkened by steel particles the way pasted strops are. At least no plain strop I've ever laid eyes on.

I've always been under the impression that when you rub two things together they will both lose material. How much, is proportional to the relative difference in hardness.

Well, I just came across this thread. I have not read all the posts but I do have an opinion.

1. There is no burr formed when honing with the traditional alternating side stroke. I have never felt one nor seen one in the microscope . An over honed edge is not a burr. It is simply so thin that it bends easily. If honed any further then the edge starts to disintegrate. The first person to post a pic of this was David Uthe on the Yahoo SRP forum a number of years ago.

2. The "fin" is simply the bevel and very edge of the blade. It has a scratch pattern on it that resemble the "fin" on a fish. It is no more complex than that.

Just my $.02,

Originally Posted by Quick

I've always been under the impression that when you rub two things together they will both lose material. How much, is proportional to the relative difference in hardness.

I didn't know that; perhaps you're right.

But if a plain leather strop is indeed abrading steel, it would seem to be doing it so subtly and infinitesimally that it can't possibly be the explanation for the effect of regular stropping on a razor's "fin." Right?

Ah what do i know – – I'm with JimmyHAD: I hones the razor til its sharp, I strops it til it's smooth, I shaves til I'm shaven.