Thread: Fin: fact or fiction?

I am by no means an expert, but I am a member here and thus will throw in my opinions.

After reading this entire post there are clearly a few definitions of "fin", be it the markings on the edge, a "Y" shape on the edge, or just a term used to describe the very edge of the blade regardless of its shape. With so many definition I am willing to bet that a general consensus will never be reached.

Personally I don't think there is a "Y" shape at the edge, I just don't see how given the way we hone that is possible. There is certainly the possibility of honing too much and having the edge break down but that's still not a "Y" shape, just a extremely acute "V" shape that is falling apart and the very edge.

Now whether or not stropping and honing has a great affect on the physical properties of the steel at the very edge I have no clue, perhaps one of the 'smiths here can chime in.

I do feel that stropping has an abrasive quality. Clearly not so much so as to dis-color the strop but we can see from some of the pictures that get thrown around that the strop can smooth the grooves. I think this is what is happening when you strop. Not some aligning of a "fin" but a removal or oxidation. Now I know some of you will say "yeah, but I oil my blade and stropping still does something." True, but can you actually say that when you dried it you removed 100% or the water? I mean water molecules are pretty damn small and I'm sure that no matter how well you dried the blade there is still going to be some moisture left at a microscopic level that will cause an amount of microscopic oxidation and it is this oxidation that the strop is removing.

Hey these are just some thoughts. I love this place for its great discussions. I look forward to seeing some arguments as to why I'm wrong but be forewarned, there is an evil smiley with a shield and a mace waiting for you.

Originally Posted by JCitron

After reading this entire post there are clearly a few definitions of "fin", be it the markings on the edge, a "Y" shape on the edge, or just a term used to describe the very edge of the blade regardless of its shape. With so many definition I am willing to bet that a general consensus will never be reached.

It would be nice if we could agree on whether a fin exists and exactly what it is but as you say, probably no consensus can be reached. In any reference to "fin" that I recall seeing it I had the impression it was a negative condition. I am not too concerned about it. As I said earlier, if the razor is shave ready I use it. If it is not I take it back to the hones and work on it some more.

When I first saw this post it reminded me of Sonny Boy Williamson's Chess recording of Little Village. He is whaling away on the harp when Leonard Chess interrupts the session and says,"What's the name of this ?" Sonny Boy and Leonard get into a squabble and Sonny Boy finally says," I don't care what you call it ! Call it your mammy if you wanna !" That is kind of my take on the controversy.

Fin=bollocks

How can a piece of fin that gets realigned by stropping lightly be strong enough to cut hair after hair when you shave???

Originally Posted by JCitron

After reading this entire post there are clearly a few definitions of "fin", be it the markings on the edge, a "Y" shape on the edge, or just a term used to describe the very edge of the blade regardless of its shape. With so many definition I am willing to bet that a general consensus will never be reached.

The only way I can understand this discussion as consequential at all is to assume we're talking about a "Y-edge," and whether it exists.

Otherwise, it's just nomenclature. It'd be like a having a poll on whether "leather bench hones are really hones" or whether "quarter hollows count as wedges" or "is an escher without a label really an escher?"

In other words: if member A thinks Y-edges exist and member B does not, this could lead to substantive disagreements about honing, substantively different diagnoses of a problem razor, and so on.

Whereas if member A calls the edge of his bevel the "fin," and member B calls it "the edge of the bevel," there are no substantive consequences at all. You say tomato I say tomahtoe.

Again & as always, I'm always open to the possibility that i've totally missed the point.

Originally Posted by dylandog

...Whereas if member A calls the edge of his bevel the "fin," and member B calls it "the edge of the bevel," there are no substantive...

Here's my analysis of your analysis of the analysis of the fin question:



PS I think you hit the point!

Originally Posted by randydance062449

Well, I just came across this thread. I have not read all the posts but I do have an opinion.


The "fin" is simply the bevel and very edge of the blade. It has a scratch pattern on it that resemble the "fin" on a fish. It is no more complex than that.

Just my $.02,

Your 2cents is worth a million dollars Randy.

And may i say BINGO!! This is precisely how I think of it.

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I'm gonna keep straight razor shaving/honing how I've been doing it all these years as it works for me, and I don't need to find out any further info on whether a razor has a fin : fact or fiction etc or not.

It shaves me well / I hone it well.

Need I do any more? Some of you guys have too much time on yer hands lol.

Originally Posted by Kees

Fin=bollocks

How can a piece of fin that gets realigned by stropping lightly be strong enough to cut hair after hair when you shave???

This is exactly the kind of tone that makes an intelligent discussion about the physics of sharpening and cutting nearly impossible.
If you look at the edge under magnification, you can actually see how the edge sustains damage from preforming a shave. I find "light" stropping ineffective to bring the razor back up to shaving par. It does require an amount of friction (or draw, for those who prefer another term).

Originally Posted by poona

Your 2cents is worth a million dollars Randy.

And may i say BINGO!! This is precisely how I think of it.

************************************************** **

I'm gonna keep straight razor shaving/honing how I've been doing it all these years as it works for me, and I don't need to find out any further info on whether a razor has a fin : fact or fiction etc or not.

It shaves me well / I hone it well.

Need I do any more? Some of you guys have too much time on yer hands lol.

"Fin" means "end" in French. It is also a word that is found in Dutch texts about razors. Almost by definition, "fin" means "the very edge". I don't believe that the fin has a Y-shape, but let's not throw away a good term with that notion.

You don't need to know how an atmospheric engine works, in order to drive a car.
I'm sure there were people that felt Isaac Newton was waisting his time. I think, by making it a poll, this thread was more about starting a controversy than about sharing viewpoints in a constructive manner. I regret that.

Happy New Year to all,
Bart.

This from a brochure that came with my Norton water stones. Could it be a FIN ?

Originally Posted by Bart

"Fin" means "end" in French. It is also a word that is found in Dutch texts about razors. Almost by definition, "fin" means "the very edge". I don't believe that the fin has a Y-shape, but let's not throw away a good term with that notion.

You don't need to know how an atmospheric engine works, in order to drive a car.
I'm sure there were people that felt Isaac Newton was waisting his time. I think, by making it a poll, this thread was more about starting a controversy than about sharing viewpoints in a constructive manner. I regret that.

Happy New Year to all,
Bart.

Didn't realise it was a French word. Ta for the info.

atmospheric engine workings - you need to know how they work to fix them. In the case of the 'fin' on a razor - it is of no value to me in my humble opinion. I already know how to fix them :P

I guess it comes down to how much you're passionate about razors to really delve deep into the physics of metallurgy. It may be of more value to the likes of the boys who are now making their own razors, I dont know? :-)

Wish I had the skills to make my own :-(

Happy New Year to you too Bart. May 2009 be a good one!

What I object to is the idea that the fin is a separate structure from the bevel. To me there is only the bevel which extends all the way to the edge. To me that is the fin. But that is an entirely American definition.
I do thank you for providing the European definition. Maybe we should adopt that?

A burr is a consequence of a specific honing method that can be seen and felt with ease when sharpening various tools like plane blades, knives and chisels.
I do not believe that we develop a burr on razors when we hone using the standard alternating side honing stroke. I have never felt one. It may be possible to develop but I do not see a purpose in it.

A wire edge , on razors, is a consequence of excessive honing and is actually an edge/bevel that is to thin and is disintegrating.

OK, time for my second cup of coffee,