Thread: Shapton Mounting System

I was going to mention that a wooden board cut to size with a couple of stoppers at the ends would make more sense, but I didn't want to sound argumentative....

I have customers who are very precision oriented, and I have customers who are "Rednecks". Either way, they both equally suffer from sharpening neuroses, and they are both just as interested in getting good results. They just travel on very different roads.

if that's the case, I just put the glass stone at the edge of the counter. There's nothing to get in the way of your knuckles, unless your knuckles go to the floor. No need for hockey pucks.

I doubt that the stone flex is percievable. I REALLY doubt it. I feel confident that I could take three identical shapton 16k's, and lap one each on a DGLP, a DMT 325 D8C, and wet/dry sandpaper on granite tile. Now take three identical razors, and ship them all off to Glen or Lynn or Ben or whomever. Have them finish razor one on stone one, razor two on stone two, etc. Mark them A, B, C or however you like. Send these razors to anyone in the world. Anyone. No chance in hell that they would be able to definitively say that "razor A was finished on Shapton two which was lapped on the DMT."

Basically, perform a true double blind test and not one of us could tell a difference.

Where do we stop? Is the next thing going to be "Shapton Granite Stones", since granite is inert and glass is actually not a solid but a super viscous liquid?

I'm not trying to come off as argumentative or disrespectful. I just want to isolate the variables that affect the end result - the razor on your face - and then find out the tolerances we need to adhere to to make a difference.

For example, in the thread on flattening, this was posted:

For razors I use the DGLP on my Shapton glass stones supported flat by the stone holder and in the pond with its specially treated surface (very very flat and no slippage) on top of a granite surface plate flat to .0001" across the whole surface. This setup gets me consistent and repeatable results.

If you just put the DGLP directly on the granite plate and lap your stones, can you tell a difference in the shave?

Or if you just put the pond on the counter with the DGLP, can you tell a difference in the shave? Etc, etc., etc....

Howard, don't feel like I'm trying to single you out; you've just gone to further extremes than most here to achieve flatness, and I'm wondering if you can tell a difference in the shave.

Basically if I lap my set of shapton glass stones and you lap your set, are your razors going to get so much sharper than mine due to flattening methods.

Agreed, I understand, Maybe Howard's extra careful. Maybe more support is needed. That's what I was doing. Laying it on the end of the counter. I never once thought of sag. I'll go back to doing it. Thanks for the input...it's appreciated...Rich

Originally Posted by jendeindustries

I was going to mention that a wooden board cut to size with a couple of stoppers at the ends would make more sense, but I didn't want to sound argumentative....

I have customers who are very precision oriented, and I have customers who are "Rednecks". Either way, they both equally suffer from sharpening neuroses, and they are both just as interested in getting good results. They just travel on very different roads.

No, Not at all. I don't know why I didn't think of it. Even the DMT could be used with the feet at the bottom, it's a nice flat surface...Thanks...
Those things sounded like a good idea at the time, I wasn't aware of sag, or even gave it a thought...

Originally Posted by Ben325e

I doubt that the stone flex is percievable. I REALLY doubt it. I feel confident that I could take three identical shapton 16k's, and lap one each on a DGLP, a DMT 325 D8C, and wet/dry sandpaper on granite tile. Now take three identical razors, and ship them all off to Glen or Lynn or Ben or whomever. Have them finish razor one on stone one, razor two on stone two, etc. Mark them A, B, C or however you like. Send these razors to anyone in the world. Anyone. No chance in hell that they would be able to definitively say that "razor A was finished on Shapton two which was lapped on the DMT."

Basically, perform a true double blind test and not one of us could tell a difference.

I think you are correct, the stone won't change because of the lapping medium, however, I think what should be looked at is the long term effectiveness of each lapping product, which hasn't really been done yet.
The rate at which each lapping product degrades is what will effect the condition of the stone after lapping over time.

Originally Posted by Howard

You've hit on the problem. How do you measure whether or not it works? I can tell you flat out (heh, heh) that the more fully supportive Shapton stone holder will hold the stone dead flat. Why is that important? Because the blade will take the shape of a stone and as you're going through the progression, you'll get differential pressure on different parts of the blade. You may be using a Shapton this way but it's not giving you it's potential.

Flatness is a technical subject and different from "lay" flatness. I had a metrologist here who has equipment that can measure the height difference on a stone based on where your hand was on it (heat expands the stone) for just a few seconds. Likewise, as you move a blade down a stone, the stone flexes and flatness is out the window.

Howard, I'm certainly not arguing with you about the flatness issue, since I have never used a Shapton. However, if it truly is a problem for the hones, then it would seem irresponsible of Shapton to sell this combo stone holder that is supposed to be able to double as a honing base. I know you are talking about the base that gives more support, but it seems that Zib's redneck base would offer more support than the one in this photo.

Originally Posted by Utopian

Howard, I'm certainly not arguing with you about the flatness issue, since I have never used a Shapton. However, if it truly is a problem for the hones, then it would seem irresponsible of Shapton to sell this combo stone holder that is supposed to be able to double as a honing base. I know you are talking about the base that gives more support, but it seems that Zib's redneck base would offer more support than the one in this photo.

Ron, You are my hero.....

I think you've got the prices on the pond and the stone holder inverted. The pond is carried by most vendors for around $160 and the stone holder is usually around $80. I love both the pond as it encourages liberal spraying of the stone and the stone holder which is the most robust holder I've tested yet. It holds the Shaptons flat and they don't move. I hate having to fight with my tools and that's why I gave up on diamond papers on granite surface plate a long time ago.