Thread: Shapton Mounting System

Redneck engineering always gets me, hehehe

Zib its better with those wheels because you keep your hones cleaner.

Originally Posted by 0livia

Redneck engineering always gets me, hehehe

Zib its better with those wheels because you keep your hones cleaner.

U R Correct.....

How much for the salt?

That's a good solution, as long as it works the ends justify the means!

To quite honest, the lack of a stone holder for the glass when they first came out 3 years ago was one of the factors in determining why I didn't pick them up as a retailer back then.

Not to mention the fact that they are all the same color is inconvenient for fast identification. They shouldn't be stored face down, and I don't want to be picking every stone up and turning it over to see which one is which all the time.

You've hit on the problem. How do you measure whether or not it works? I can tell you flat out (heh, heh) that the more fully supportive Shapton stone holder will hold the stone dead flat. Why is that important? Because the blade will take the shape of a stone and as you're going through the progression, you'll get differential pressure on different parts of the blade. You may be using a Shapton this way but it's not giving you it's potential.

Flatness is a technical subject and different from "lay" flatness. I had a metrologist here who has equipment that can measure the height difference on a stone based on where your hand was on it (heat expands the stone) for just a few seconds. Likewise, as you move a blade down a stone, the stone flexes and flatness is out the window.

Point taken, Howard, but I can't justify spending 160.00 on something that justs holds the stone, on a hone that I rarely use. That holder cost's more that the stone, most folks don't buy em! Like the 300 dollar DGLP, Push comes to shove, I'll just lay the thing back on the counter. I've considered using a third support in the middle, but it seems the difference is negligible. Since you brought it up, when I use it, I'll use a third support, that should take care of it. It's not like I'm putting much pressure on it. I respect your input, I know you sell these among other things, and your well respected in the community, However, as I said, this is my one and only Shapton, Since I have an army of other hones at my disposal, and all my razors are shave ready, The shapton get's used rarely. Heck, I could build a solid wood base, rubber lined...problem solved...In the mean time, looks like a third support is in order.
I hope I never use that much pressure that sag becomes and issue and I hope these Shapton's aren't that cheaply made that they sag either. You actually had a metrologist come to your house and measure heat variations in hones? Since I don't know any of those guys, I guess I'll measure how mine works the old fashioned way, by shaving...

I was going to mention that a wooden board cut to size with a couple of stoppers at the ends would make more sense, but I didn't want to sound argumentative....

I have customers who are very precision oriented, and I have customers who are "Rednecks". Either way, they both equally suffer from sharpening neuroses, and they are both just as interested in getting good results. They just travel on very different roads.

if that's the case, I just put the glass stone at the edge of the counter. There's nothing to get in the way of your knuckles, unless your knuckles go to the floor. No need for hockey pucks.

I doubt that the stone flex is percievable. I REALLY doubt it. I feel confident that I could take three identical shapton 16k's, and lap one each on a DGLP, a DMT 325 D8C, and wet/dry sandpaper on granite tile. Now take three identical razors, and ship them all off to Glen or Lynn or Ben or whomever. Have them finish razor one on stone one, razor two on stone two, etc. Mark them A, B, C or however you like. Send these razors to anyone in the world. Anyone. No chance in hell that they would be able to definitively say that "razor A was finished on Shapton two which was lapped on the DMT."

Basically, perform a true double blind test and not one of us could tell a difference.

Where do we stop? Is the next thing going to be "Shapton Granite Stones", since granite is inert and glass is actually not a solid but a super viscous liquid?

I'm not trying to come off as argumentative or disrespectful. I just want to isolate the variables that affect the end result - the razor on your face - and then find out the tolerances we need to adhere to to make a difference.

For example, in the thread on flattening, this was posted:

For razors I use the DGLP on my Shapton glass stones supported flat by the stone holder and in the pond with its specially treated surface (very very flat and no slippage) on top of a granite surface plate flat to .0001" across the whole surface. This setup gets me consistent and repeatable results.

If you just put the DGLP directly on the granite plate and lap your stones, can you tell a difference in the shave?

Or if you just put the pond on the counter with the DGLP, can you tell a difference in the shave? Etc, etc., etc....

Howard, don't feel like I'm trying to single you out; you've just gone to further extremes than most here to achieve flatness, and I'm wondering if you can tell a difference in the shave.

Basically if I lap my set of shapton glass stones and you lap your set, are your razors going to get so much sharper than mine due to flattening methods.

Originally Posted by jendeindustries

I was going to mention that a wooden board cut to size with a couple of stoppers at the ends would make more sense, but I didn't want to sound argumentative....

I have customers who are very precision oriented, and I have customers who are "Rednecks". Either way, they both equally suffer from sharpening neuroses, and they are both just as interested in getting good results. They just travel on very different roads.

No, Not at all. I don't know why I didn't think of it. Even the DMT could be used with the feet at the bottom, it's a nice flat surface...Thanks...
Those things sounded like a good idea at the time, I wasn't aware of sag, or even gave it a thought...

I think you've got the prices on the pond and the stone holder inverted. The pond is carried by most vendors for around $160 and the stone holder is usually around $80. I love both the pond as it encourages liberal spraying of the stone and the stone holder which is the most robust holder I've tested yet. It holds the Shaptons flat and they don't move. I hate having to fight with my tools and that's why I gave up on diamond papers on granite surface plate a long time ago.

Originally Posted by Howard

You've hit on the problem. How do you measure whether or not it works? I can tell you flat out (heh, heh) that the more fully supportive Shapton stone holder will hold the stone dead flat. Why is that important? Because the blade will take the shape of a stone and as you're going through the progression, you'll get differential pressure on different parts of the blade. You may be using a Shapton this way but it's not giving you it's potential.

Flatness is a technical subject and different from "lay" flatness. I had a metrologist here who has equipment that can measure the height difference on a stone based on where your hand was on it (heat expands the stone) for just a few seconds. Likewise, as you move a blade down a stone, the stone flexes and flatness is out the window.

Howard, I'm certainly not arguing with you about the flatness issue, since I have never used a Shapton. However, if it truly is a problem for the hones, then it would seem irresponsible of Shapton to sell this combo stone holder that is supposed to be able to double as a honing base. I know you are talking about the base that gives more support, but it seems that Zib's redneck base would offer more support than the one in this photo.