Thread: Life on The Edge, What Is The Same, What Is Different

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I can't speak for anyone but myself and I don't understand much of the theory you are posting about.

Sort of like when I was an ironworker. In apprentice school we learned what a cantilever was and some of the theory behind shear versus compression but in the end it was climb that column, stick a spud wrench in the hole and a bolt. Cut it loose and move on to the next point.

So I try to follow all of the scientific stuff as far as I can with my amount of education but thankfully so far I haven't needed to understand it to hone razors and get them shave ready. I'm willing to learn though so keep at it. The puns are cool too.

Jimmy,
I think there is a collective hope that some theory is going to pop out so thanks for bringing us back to earth. Many of us have our own "theories" based on many years of self study and comming up with there own methods. Many people wishing to learn sharpening would be lucky to be at your side if we still had the apprentice system. I myself would totally abuse all my apprentices and have them work on getting pits out of blades with slips for at least the first 5 years.(just joking, apprentices are too smart these days)
I think Jimmy's point is that we need to stay focused on what is new even if old, like kevin did when he dug up the "oil stone" reference if we are to make progress, not to expect a new theory to happen today or tommorrow. I know that is what we like to see but one step at a time. Thanks Jimmy I think weve come back to earth.
Mike

I got into a discussion about this very topic with a carpenter pal of mine. He showed some genuine interest in straight shaving and thats what really started the conversation off. For his planes, he uses a 2000 grit as a finisher. Also, he moves the steel on the hone at a 90 degree angle to how you would hone a straight razor. My theory is that this would reduce the chance of a possible wire edge, but I really dont know why. He claims he was taught to hone his edges from an old Italian guy, Apparently, this old fella would walk around the shop with a 'high grit' stone and the blade, just rubbing them on each other. My pal seems to think the old fella would take a few hours to hone up a plane blade for use. The plane blade has a different use that a razor blade. I have trouble comparing the two. But I can see some rationale there if the plane sharpening methods were some of the only bits of information available at the time.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

if you have problem with this post Jimmy i am in deep trouble . Sorry tried just cannot get concept of it.

Bud do have have Lee's book?

Originally Posted by Bruce

Jimmy,

Phil, an old friend, also was an ironworker. I asked him once how far he could move a mis-aligned hole. He said that with his sleever and a three pound hammer, he could get about half a diameter. I was impressed.

And now back to shaving , or honing , whatever ...

The old saying was get a bigger hammer. Ive even beat a few pieces into place swinging the headache ball.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

I think Jimmy's point is that we need to stay focused on what is new even if old, like kevin did when he dug up the "oil stone" reference if we are to make progress, not to expect a new theory to happen today or tommorrow.

Actually my point was that even if the hifalutin theory is over my head I just hone razors with an X stroke and seem to be doing fine. Carry on with the conversation though I may learn something.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Bud do have have Lee's book?

i don't have that book. i wanted understand concept of it. what are you trying to say in simple words if you can please .

The point of the quote I believe is they were not really interested in changing tools as what they had been using seemed to be working fine.

Which is not too far off base from what the Kingfish is encountering here.

I cannot put my finger on why the tech side interest me. I guess because I need some distraction from all the boring uninteresting stuff going on around me. Neither do I get a kick out of helpng newbies. They can buy a rock and learn to sharpen the same as I did right? one edge at a time.

newbs worry too much (imho) about obtaining the ultimate and best. when 1. there is not one. and 2. if it were its ultimate properties would be lost in their lack of experience.

One reason I started was to explore that ultimate edge. everything that is really sharp is said to be razor sharp. I wanted to know what that really meant. Just as sharpening razors has made me better, more focused on sharpening my handtools. I think for those who are just shavers, finding something more to sharpen than razors.

many have commented that razors are different from other steel edged tools. I have asked for their thoughts as the the whats and why but never got an answer. My view is; it is not really all that different.

Originally Posted by kevint

many have commented that razors are different from other steel edged tools. I have asked for their thoughts as the the whats and why but never got an answer. My view is; it is not really all that different.

Not to belabor the point but the tech side has a certain amount of interest for me too. OTOH, I am way behind the curve in that area but it seems that IME theory isn''t a prerequisite for honing razors successfully. Still interesting though.

With my limited knowledge of sharpening anything other than pocket knives and straight razors I would think that the difference is the thickness of the bevel. Razors are a heck of a lot thinner and finer than most other tools needing sharpening. Maybe that is too simple to be correct ?

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Not to belabor the point but the tech side has a certain amount of interest for me too. OTOH, I am way behind the curve in that area but it seems that IME theory isn''t a prerequisite for honing razors successfully. Still interesting though.

With my limited knowledge of sharpening anything other than pocket knives and straight razors I would think that the difference is the thickness of the bevel. Razors are a heck of a lot thinner and finer than most other tools needing sharpening. Maybe that is too simple to be correct ?

Sharpening needs to be done to suit the edge to the job. I once had to quickly install some deadbolt locks in a few doors where there was no time to get proper modifications in the steel frames for flush mounted strike plates. I mostly drilled out rectangular holes with a series of small holes and chopped the rest of the hole square and true with one of my favorite chisels. I ground the bevel more obtuse than usual for wood, but still honed it to an edge fine enough so I could actually shave the steel. Good tools are a marvelous thing.

I kinda tried somewhat the same approach when I first attempted honing a razor - not a regrind, just a hone, but it was a pretty ham-handed approach to creating a chisel's edge on a razor. And I guess I ended up with a chisel's edge on a razor 'cuz it wasn't worth doodly whoop for shaving. Athough it was a start and sharp as they are now, I wouldn't think of shaving steel with them -- but that old Stanley, tough steel.

But I digress -- never been there before

Originally Posted by Whiskers

I got into a discussion about this very topic with a carpenter pal of mine. He showed some genuine interest in straight shaving and thats what really started the conversation off. For his planes, he uses a 2000 grit as a finisher. Also, he moves the steel on the hone at a 90 degree angle to how you would hone a straight razor. My theory is that this would reduce the chance of a possible wire edge, but I really dont know why. He claims he was taught to hone his edges from an old Italian guy, Apparently, this old fella would walk around the shop with a 'high grit' stone and the blade, just rubbing them on each other. My pal seems to think the old fella would take a few hours to hone up a plane blade for use. The plane blade has a different use that a razor blade. I have trouble comparing the two. But I can see some rationale there if the plane sharpening methods were some of the only bits of information available at the time.

Whiskers,
Many woodworkers get by with inferior edges and have no clue what sharp is. Leonard Lee, which in large part what this whole post is about had the similar standard of sharp as commercial razors in 1995. Nortons I just checked did not even have their waterstone line out at that time and that is what we are talking about.
As far as the end grain of wood-whiskers(not you, whisker whiskers) Low angle block planes skewed to lower effective cutting angle similar to bevel of Straights or DEs and their low cutting angle. That is more than just similar, only the material differs and the design of the tool.
Mike
Mike