Thread: Microbevels with the Shapton 30000

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Touch up is simply to continue to develop microbevel the same way. Over time it will grow into a regular bevel but that will be some time later. When it gets to that point you start over, make a primary bevel as you would normally then move to the 30K for a micro. I have a feeling that would take a long time to happen as the micro should be stronger by some factor. On the other hand if these microbevels turn out to be weak and are prone to rapid deterioration than it should be considered a bad practice as it defeats the purpose and any advantages it may offer. Now that is all theory as it pertains to razors as we can agree they are a unique animal.
Thanks for your insight and suggestions Dave. Many heads are better than one when they work together. I have been using a Challenge razor for one week with no sign of deterioration. The bevel pretty much looks like the day I did it. I too strop lightly to dry off edge only. I can't put my razor up without it's ritual of drying, light strop then camellia oil. I don't think that is unique behavior on this end of town.
Oh as far as recreating a single bevel, you will have to take it down to lower grits. The 16000 won't do it.

Thanks!

Although I do like to finish with natural stones, finishing with a 30k microbevel seems very straightforward. Just a few laps with an extra piece of tape and BINGO, you're done. I could see myself taking a razor from very dull, going from 1k to 16k, then putting on a microbevel on at 30k. The whole process wouldn't take very long with the Shaptons and it's very no-nonsense.

Still, there's no way I'm going to abandon my naturals.

EDIT: I was just thinking.....if I really do want to finish on a natural, couldn't I establish the micro-bevel with a few laps on the 30k then finish on a slower high grit natural like a Nakayama?

Originally Posted by StraightRazorDave

Thanks!

Although I do like to finish with natural stones, finishing with a 30k microbevel seems very straightforward. Just a few laps with an extra piece of tape and BINGO, you're done. I could see myself taking a razor from very dull, going from 1k to 16k, then putting on a microbevel on at 30k. The whole process wouldn't take very long with the Shaptons and it's very no-nonsense.

Still, there's no way I'm going to abandon my naturals.

EDIT: I was just thinking.....if I really do want to finish on a natural, couldn't I establish the micro-bevel with a few laps on the 30k then finish on a slower high grit natural like a Nakayama?

After reading this thread, I tried almost exactly that last night. I had a Case Red Imp Wedge that I was having trouble getting right where I wanted it. Figured I would have to rehone it anyway, so why not try?

I put on a single layer of tape, I took it to my nakayama using a fairly heavy slurry, did 20 laps than diluted, 10 laps and diluted, 10 more and finished on just water (kind of like a coti progression). I shaved without stropping. The shave was very interesting--sharp as all get out, but I don't know how smooth it was; I was extremely irritated afterward, but my face has been very strange these past few days, flaring up at everything I put on it. Might be a good idea to put the test shaves aside for the time being.

Originally Posted by JimR

After reading this thread, I tried almost exactly that last night. I had a Case Red Imp Wedge that I was having trouble getting right where I wanted it. Figured I would have to rehone it anyway, so why not try?

I put on a single layer of tape, I took it to my nakayama using a fairly heavy slurry, did 20 laps than diluted, 10 laps and diluted, 10 more and finished on just water (kind of like a coti progression). I shaved without stropping. The shave was very interesting--sharp as all get out, but I don't know how smooth it was; I was extremely irritated afterward, but my face has been very strange these past few days, flaring up at everything I put on it. Might be a good idea to put the test shaves aside for the time being.

Hi Jim,
I started all my micros on razors that did not have issues. I don't believe these ultra fine polishing stones can fix problem razors that you can't "get right". Your razor should be sitting on a perfect bevel finished around 12000 -16000 primary bevel then the one layer and minimal laps on the 30K just tightens up your previous work another degree. I am glad you tried it, but I don't want to give impression that this is going to fix a razor that is "not right". That won't happen.
Everything you normaly do to get an edge then this is just the finishing touch. Thats all.
Mike

Mike,
I appreciate your comments, but I wasn't under the impression that it would.

The "not right" with my razor was not a problem with the bevel, it simply wasn't exactly where I wanted it.

I'm investigating, asking "what happens if". So I asked, what happens if I take this edge with whichI am not entirely satisfief, and use my nakayama to put a microbevel on it? It got keener, but not necessarily smoother.

So I feel it was a good experience, a lesson that I have begun learning.

Originally Posted by JimR

Mike,
I appreciate your comments, but I wasn't under the impression that it would.

The "not right" with my razor was not a problem with the bevel, it simply wasn't exactly where I wanted it.

I'm investigating, asking "what happens if". So I asked, what happens if I take this edge with whichI am not entirely satisfief, and use my nakayama to put a microbevel on it? It got keener, but not necessarily smoother.

So I feel it was a good experience, a lesson that I have begun learning.

I hear you Jim,
I just want to keep the experiment on topic.
We have a few members who are participating and getting feedback and we are collectively enjoying our study and as Lynn tells us all "Having Fun. Smoothness comes up as an issue but not ripping the face off but adjusting to a sharper blade? Maybe, maybe not. The next step might be that some with finer skin would have to use a little CrO paste to smooth out. Please take no offense Jim, I just want to isolate the process first then we can go from there.
Respectfully,
Michael

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Hi Jim,
I started all my micros on razors that did not have issues. I don't believe these ultra fine polishing stones can fix problem razors that you can't "get right". Your razor should be sitting on a perfect bevel finished around 12000 -16000 primary bevel then the one layer and minimal laps on the 30K just tightens up your previous work another degree. I am glad you tried it, but I don't want to give impression that this is going to fix a razor that is "not right". That won't happen.
Everything you normaly do to get an edge then this is just the finishing touch. Thats all.
Mike

Can you give some more samples? How great your info is! It really useful for me. Thanks.

I reckon I've had something like 18-20 shaves off of this edge by now. Also shaved my wife's legs with it on two occasions, for what that's worth.

The absolute sharpness of it may have dropped the slightest bit (or I've just gotten used to handling it), but it's still far better than anything I'd been shaving with before. I'm able to consistently get perfect BBS from two passes - dropping the XTG pass entirely. On mornings I get antsy and grab another razor out of my rotation, I often wish I hadn't.

And all this with very little stropping! I've been doing only 10-15 passes on leather before I shave as a token gesture, but I'm not even sure it's necessary. I can't speak as to others' experiences with edge longevity, but this is completely atypical for me. Heck, I used to feel like I needed to strop again mid-shave half the time.

In a nutshell, the durability of this microbevel is off the scale, and there's no signs of it slowing down yet.

Looking back at how this thread started and where it has gone gets me thinking. First off, the 30k is what it is, meaning a super high grit stone that is capable of making a wicked sharp highly refind edge on a piece of steel. Providing that it has been refined to the point of where you would feel the difference on your face where it counts, on lower grits first. It has a narrow window of function that when used properly, I don't see how anyone could ever be disappointed if you are looking for that of keeness. The final result is a well defined bevel that on my face give a super smooth and close shave. Much thanks to Adam, who made me more mindful of the shaving angle and how important keeping it low is. The sharpness of this bevel allows for a low angle of attack. Facial hair even coarse beards like my own have no chance against it. Since little resistance is offered by the beard and having lowered my shaving angle, it feels like I am shaving with abandon, throwing caution to the wind as far as getting nicks or irritation. Since the bevel angle hardly changes with a single piece of tape, there is no need to increase angle and since the blade is wickedly sharp the angle drops and you get a fantastic shave. Lowering angle lowers irritation to the face. Again, thanks Adam for making me aware of it to the point where I have changed the way I shave. (two teachers, one in Macedonia and one In Florida taught something to each other here at SRP. How cool is that!!) The edge is very sturdy and I believe will last a very long time before needing to go back to the hone simply because of the lack of resistance means less stress to the edge.
I hope others that have tried it have had as much luck as we did and encourage others to try a very simple repeatable method of finishing your blade. I have tried eschers and Nakayama since, but in the application of what is being done here, the Shapton remains in my mind as good as it gets. On that subject, I now realize after playing with just a couple of naturals for a short period, that their forte, at least for the Nakayama is the wide range of duty in functional grits whereas the 30k is very narrow window of function. That does not make one "better' in my mind just different applications.
Cheers!
Mike

I been trying to work on my razor sharpening skills again lately, and I finally got to the point where I can truly appreciate this experiment. I still think there is a ways to go with my technique, but the basic edge is finally there, IMO.

So, I took my razor up through the Shapton Glass progression - 2K, 3K, 4K,6K, 8K, and 10K (the Japanese version). I stropped and checked the edge and a few hairs, and under the microscope it was still intact. I decided that the 16K might overdo it, so I added another piece of tape (making a total of 2 pieces) and did 10 strokes on the 30K glass.

I stropped on my new Kanayama 50,000 strop, and had one of my best shaves to date.

It's still to early for me to tell if the micro bevel is good because of it being a micro bevel, or because my technique is improving, or a little of both...., but it was definitely a step in the right direction.

I can't wait for the next razor, when time permits....

isn't a microbevel essentially what stropping creates over time? As the bevel becomes rounded by the strop, the angle of the actual edge becomes greater. That's basically what you're doing with a microbevel.

Or am I totally off-track?