Thread: Harshness and Final Bevel Shape

I just enjoy reading all of the forum topics that take honing to a level so much removed and significantly higher than the one I operate on. I have one stone, a white Arkansas, and I strop on denim, then leather. That's it. I plan to amass a few more stones in the future just so I can pipe in on these conversations.

Personally what works for you consistently is what you should do! Its very hard to turn a theory into a law relative to straight razor honing. For example, it is set in stone that an 8k norton will shave better than a 4k. However for the littler things like micro bevels, concave bevels, and the actual finish of the bevel - people are all going to get different results (take the dragons tongue hone for example, some say 6k some say 10k plus.) In this case it is difficult to recomend it to people and have them get consistent results. I for one use tape to create a micro, I also go from a 10k to polish mirror and then drop back to a coti. For me going straight to a coti has less effect than dropping back, but shaving off the 10k is uncomfortable for me.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Yes, but they are at the mercy of the preset angle set by the tool. We adjust the angle we shave with continualy while we shave. The DE user a an edge to interact with, we glide on our bevels.

Chuck half a DE blade into a shavette, which also allows you to vary the angle during the shave. It's still harsh.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

My last venture into high grit pyramids got me thinking. The effect of going back to the slurried Nat without tape reduced the angle of the microbevel of the 30k. The slurry reduced the amount of metal supporting the edge and in effect made the bevel flatter reducing the micro bevel angle. In other words, a certain amount of convex bevel shape is related to the smoothness factor we feel while shaving. Supporting this new idea, I took a harsh high grit pyramid bevel and reworked it with a micro bevel on a 16k, then one more piece of tape to make another micro with the 30k. Result was a smooth shave once again. Also, supporting the importance of having some degree of convex shape are some of the best razor honers using diamond spray on felt to finish off their bevels. Some of the naturals may also be creating a degree of convex bevel do to their slurries.
It now makes some sense to me that a perfect edge with no convex shape interacts with the skin giving a harsh shave. A convex shape, by whatever means created, makes contact with the skin at the same time as the edge supporting it and giving a smooth shave. Does that make sense?

I may not be following exactly so please correct if inaccurate. If you removed the tape, returned to the natural with slurry and shaved. The harshness might have come from the slightly elevated edge rollicking in the slurry. If you added tape again for the 30 before shaving then I'd suspect over-honing, or at least over-thinning-but how harsh was it?

Originally Posted by mparker762

Chuck half a DE blade into a shavette, which also allows you to vary the angle during the shave. It's still harsh.

Maybe, but you are still shaving with a very thin, disposable blade this causes "chatter" from flexing.That is why we like a more the substantial grind and not shavettes. Look at the difference grind makes between a wedge and a full hollow. I have never found secondary bevels harsh at all.

Originally Posted by kevint

I may not be following exactly so please correct if inaccurate. If you removed the tape, returned to the natural with slurry and shaved. The harshness might have come from the slightly elevated edge rollicking in the slurry. If you added tape again for the 30 before shaving then I'd suspect over-honing, or at least over-thinning-but how harsh was it?

I did add the tape again to what looked like the cleanest edge i ever made very smooth looking at 100x and feeling on the TPT. All food for thought in our quest for the best bevel-edge combo It was harsh but what a close shave!

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Maybe, but you are still shaving with a very thin, disposable blade this causes "chatter" from flexing.

Not in an actual Dovo Shavette it doesn't, that plastic adapter and stainless steel holder secures it quite firmly. In fact I would say that there's less flex in the Shavette-held DE blade than there is in a full hollow. But that DE or injector blade with it's secondary and tertiary bevels is still harsh.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

That is why we like a more the substantial grind and not shavettes.

I'm skeptical. As I mentioned above, a Dovo Shavette does not let the blade flex and chatter. However, the Shavette has other problems such as an extremely short working edge and short tang which together make it difficult to get a good angle on the flat parts of the face. But chatter isn't one of those problems, otherwise the Feather AC (which has a worse chatter problem) wouldn't be much more popular among the denizens of this board.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Look at the difference grind makes between a wedge and a full hollow.

A large part of the difference between the wedge and full hollow is due to the difference in mass, not the difference in stiffness. Framebacks and 3/4 hollow razors are good demonstrations of this, they are as stiff as a wedge for our purposes, but without the mass of a wedge. Yet they don't shave like a wedge. For that matter a 5/8 wedge like a Union Spike doesn't shave at all like an 7/8 wedge, yet a 5/8 Friodur shaves very much like a 7/8 Friodur.

The Dovo Shavette is very light. If you prefer a heavy razor you'll hate the Shavette. But don't confuse mass with stiffness, nor low mass with blade flex and chatter.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

I have never found secondary bevels harsh at all.

I think you misunderstood my point, which is not that secondary bevels are harsh, but to falsify this statement:

Originally Posted by Kingfish

In other words, a certain amount of convex bevel shape is related to the smoothness factor we feel while shaving.

The presence of a secondary bevel is insufficient to explain the smoothness you were describing in your original post. As other posts in this thread have also made clear, neither is a secondary bevel necessary for a smooth edge.

Personally, I agree with gssixgun that the polish on the bevel is very important to the smoothness of the edge. FWIW it's difficult to judge the smoothness of the bevel by the shinyness, because the shape of the scratches, how evenly deep they are, their relative spacing, and how parallel the scratches are can all have huge impacts on the bevel's visual appearance in the light.

A thought popped into my head while reading this post, and I'm curious to here some thoughts and opinions.

I've seen videos and read articles on the function of placing tape on the spine while honing to create a slightly steaper bevel, thereby adding a little more width to the edge, and supposedly making a more comfortable shaver. I follow the logic, and despite not having tried, could imagine it making for a more comfortable shave.

Now here is my thought/question. If this micro bevel is only set in the final steps of honing, and done on a very small level, wouldn't routine stropping undo that work quickly. My thinking is that to truly maintain that micro bevel, one would have to strop using a taped spine. Is there any logic to my thinking?

Originally Posted by freyguy

Now here is my thought/question. If this micro bevel is only set in the final steps of honing, and done on a very small level, wouldn't routine stropping undo that work quickly. My thinking is that to truly maintain that micro bevel, one would have to strop using a taped spine. Is there any logic to my thinking?

It will if you're stropping on something even slightly abrasive. If you're stropping on something very hard and flat like a pasted hardwood then it'll slowly abrade the primary bevel and diminish the secondary bevel until it's gone. If you're stropping on something not-so-hard-or-flat, like a linen hanging strop or any sort of pasted hanging, paddle, or loom strop, then it will abrade away both the primary and secondary bevels, blending them into a smoothly arched bevel. This arched or rounded bevel can also be achieved by simply starting with a single-bevel edge and stropping it the same way, and this rounded bevel is widely regarded as a very bad thing.

Ironically, the second/tertiary bevel technique that you get from using multiple layers of tape creates a bevel that is a coarse approximation of the rounded bevel that you get from a pasted hanging or paddle strop. That the coarsely arched bevel is widely praised and the smoothly arched bevel is widely maligned is a phenomenon that intrigues me moderately.

Originally Posted by mparker762

I That the coarsely arched bevel is widely praised and the smoothely arched bevel is widely maligned is a phenomenon that intrigues me moderately.

So the question becomes, is the criticism of the arched bevel, from whichever source created it, justified ?

Originally Posted by mparker762

This arched or rounded bevel can also be achieved by simply starting with a single-bevel edge and stropping it the same way, and this rounded bevel is widely regarded as a very bad thing.

Ironically, the laborious second/tertiary bevel technique that you get from using multiple layers of tape creates a bevel that is a coarse approximation of the rounded bevel that you get from a pasted hanging or paddle strop. That the coarsely arched bevel is widely praised and the smoothely arched bevel is widely maligned is a phenomenon that intrigues me moderately.

On this forum.... and some of the other forums

We (SRP) are a stone forum, so basically "Stones Rule" now it is my understanding that some of the EU forums still adhere to the "set a bevel then pasted loom strop routine" which gives the more rounded bevel and a nice smooth shave too...
I guess there are different forums there too though, and stone forums also...
But yes I agree that many on these forums look down at the use of pastes as a crutch... Personally, I want the smoothest feel on my face, period, and I really don't give a hoot what it takes to get there...If I ever get time I am going to experiment with a vintage loom strop I have, and just Dovo pastes after the 1k stone...