Thread: Jnat Finisher honing with Water Only

Originally Posted by Lemur

I've got some combinations that don't play well together, however light you let them touch they will scratch.
Some can be tricky and others are smooth and easy to use.
Did Maksim test them together?
Small scratches I wouldn't worry about, it's only cosmetic but a scratch might well mean that you now have some toxic particles in you slurry, as soon some of mine scratch I clean everything and start over.

the sharp corners of a hard slurry stone can dig into the base stone when too much pressure is applied

Originally Posted by brooksie967

Maksim put my Ozuku Mizu Asagi at a level 5+ and sent a wakasa tomo nagura with it. I'm having a terrible time with the tomo nagura scratching the surface of my Ozuku. It doesn't seem to have an impact on honing but I'm starting to not like the scratches in the surface of my stone....

Brooksie
In my book the tomonagura should be just slightly softer than the awasedo base stone. The tipping point is when the tomo will readily and without warning scratch the base stone, this is when it is too hard. But at the same time the tomo should be hard enough to energize the base stone and through simple abrasion encourage the release of some grit from the base stone. This way the beginning slurry mix is a combination of grit/clay particles made up from both the tomo and base stones and the goal is to have a symbiotic perpetual release of base stone grit particles during the slurry finishing stages.

After progressing through the slurry stages, and a rinse of the stone has washed away the slurry, a "slurryless stage" is problematic and can be mis-understood. As I mentioned before the vacuum created between the ultra flat steel bevel and the ultra flat stone during the clear water stages will encourage the release of weakly bound up grit particles, more so and noticable in softer (easier to release grit) stones and less so or noticable in harder stones. But in reality both the soft and hard stones will release some grit because of the suction.

In the ultra hard stones the released rogue grit particle is felt and heard as a single yelp like a dog in the night and this single particle will micro chip the edge of the blade if it reaches the edge (the scratch may lead up to that chip as a pointer). With softer stones used with just clear water the multitude of released rogue particles is deadened as the yelp is echoed amongst the group so that the single sound or scratch is not so visable, but still is present.

The only way I have found to truly water finish a blade without the rogue particles affecting the blade is by honing the water stage under direct running water, like under your kitchen faucet. The continuous stream of running water should be directed so as to carry away any and all rogue particles as they are being released sight unseen.

By carrying out this running water stage I have been able to polish a razor bevel to such a degree that it is scratch free as seen under 800x, and bright enough to resemble the scratch-less finish off my 30,000 grit Shapton. The 30k Shapton gets to that polished place faster than the J-nat, but the sheen is never the less the same.

I am talking bevel here, not edge sharpness. Edge sharpness can be an elusive quality at these ultra high grit levels. Sharp is sharp, no doubt. But for how long is sharp sharp will define and determine if ultra sharp is worth the effort. If you cannot get more then a couple of 5 shaves from a 1 hour honing session well then what's there to brag about.

Alx

Thanks for the info Alx, very helpful indeed.

I've yet to have issues with rogue particules from my Ozuku Mizu Asagi or my Nakayama Maruichi Kiita/Asagi when finishing on water only. Perhaps that is related to the fact that I've only ever finished on JUST water while under the tap.

Talking sharpness again, I've yet to have any issues with edge degredation after any number of shaves. I've got a handful of razors that I've finished on these stones and have yet to have one degrade to the point of needing re-honing. Any razors that have felt TOO sharp have softened up quite nicely.

My recent purchase of a vintage green thuringian has also left me very happy as it is leaving incredibly smooth edges; it is nowhere near as sharp as the edges off of either of my JNATs though.

The difference in hardness between my two stones is, so far, undetectable to me. I've been fooling around with using an extra find dmt card to raise a slurry off the base stone of each for finishing purposes. The Ozuku is a much slower cutter than the Nakayama when using this method. I'm judging that by the length of time it's taking the slurry to change colour.

The Nakayama is also producing a slightly less keen yet smoother edge than the Ozuku. Both stones follow the same trend when finished with diluted slurry.

This is of course, all depending on the razor I'm honing. Some of my razors just don't seem to like the JNAT. Perhaps the steel isn't good enough to handle the edge produced and that's when I finish off my vintage coticule or the green thuri.

Brooksie967

Thanks for the overview and the tie-in with the Thuri. I have also found that under running water the edge can get kicked up a notch or two, and there is little chance of scratching. Keep it up, Alx

Originally Posted by alx

Brooksie967

Thanks for the overview and the tie-in with the Thuri. I have also found that under running water the edge can get kicked up a notch or two, and there is little chance of scratching. Keep it up, Alx

Thanks ALX.

Honestly it seems to depend on the razor when finishing on just water. Some razors just don't seem to be able to handle it without getting so sharp that they hurt while shaving, others come off just water incredibly smooth and buttery. At this point if the razors are too crispy I just go back to the jnat and do a few passes with slurry to mellow it out. Still these edges seem much keener than that of my coticule, 12k naniwa, vintage thuri etc.

I've never tried any Jnat under running water, will do tonight!
Got a Daishi 800 Tamahagane that seems to take a really good edge to play with.

The suction thing is not problem only on the Jnats, as Alx pointed, every stone with the above attributes will have this effect. A few ways to avoid it is,
try smiling razors,
use a tiny bit of slurry in the water,
tape,
Or, use the Smiths solution or any non petroleum based liquid with oily feeling that can be washed out easily. Don't worry, you will not ruin your stones.

On the final stages of honing, I always hone under running water. Not only the particles that can get loose, anything that floats in the air can stick on the stone.

Originally Posted by Vasilis

The suction thing is not problem only on the Jnats, as Alx pointed, every stone with the above attributes will have this effect. A few ways to avoid it is,
try smiling razors,
use a tiny bit of slurry in the water,
tape,
Or, use the Smiths solution or any non petroleum based liquid with oily feeling that can be washed out easily. Don't worry, you will not ruin your stones.

On the final stages of honing, I always hone under running water. Not only the particles that can get loose, anything that floats in the air can stick on the stone.

Like the hair from my two bengal cats? or my doberman? yeah, hate when that happens!!!

Cat hair everywhere!
They also lick my hones and sharpen their claws on them, the Devon Rex goes for the Nakayama kiita and the wild cat for sandstone.

Originally Posted by alx

I am talking bevel here, not edge sharpness. Edge sharpness can be an elusive quality at these ultra high grit levels. Sharp is sharp, no doubt. But for how long is sharp sharp will define and determine if ultra sharp is worth the effort. If you cannot get more then a couple of 5 shaves from a 1 hour honing session well then what's there to brag about.

Alx

I've found that to be true as well & these days, for touchups & finishing I'm normally just doing 15-20 pigtails followed by 5-10 x-strokes on the slurry. No dilution or water--the edge is super sharp already so why bother?. It feels sharper (beard cutting) & lasts a lot longer that if I went all the way to water. W/ dilution or water, the edge doesn't cut my beard as easily & the razor doesn't hold up for long.