Thread: Knot Sources Pros Cons

Thater, Simpson, Virginia Sheng, Virginia sheng, TGN.

It's easy to see that the Thater and Simpson are a much higher quality than the Chinese. All you need to do is have them side by side. The Simpson is an unbelievable specimen of a knot. Although the hair in the Thater is the thickest out of all of them. Also appears that the Thater ND Simpson hairs are perfect soldiers, perfectly standing in a row. The Chinese knot hairs are every which way. Again, this is only what I see with my eyes.

Just a simple question

Do we have a clip showing the Chinese process ???? or are many people here making assumptions ???

Since Labor costs are so cheap in the "Children's Sweat shops" how do we know they are not doing the exact same process as the Old World Makers ???



Just asking

These arguments to me don't amount to a hill of beans in my little shaving universe. You have brand X made with meticulous expertise, hand selected hairs shaped by what appears to be middle aged house wives that have acquired some dexterity in the process verses Brand Y apparently manufactured by invalids in China under forced labor that cant possibly understand how to make a good brush as If you needed a masters degree to do so. Not to mention that the Chinese have a history and culture in brush making in general that goes back 6,000 years. As with all things it depends on the source and determination to make a good product. I think this can be achieved by both. Also a knot improperly set is a waste of all the quality that might of went into making that knot as the brush itself will not function to its potential. I have used a few Brand X brushes and unfortunately have been disappointed in their ability to deliver what I like and yes this is a Ymmv thing. That said I have brand Y brushes that have actually impressed me performance wise and yeah they can be way cheaper. So go on and discuss how great those brands are as I said I have yet to be convinced that ill get what I pay for. Sometimes I wont.

Here's some pics of the knots being made at a copay called Victoria brushes in Germany. I'm not sure which companies they supply with knots, but I do know that these are the knots that go into The Art of Shaving brushes. As you can see, they use a metal ring to hold their base knot together, and are hand crafted in house. I suspect they are of higher quality.

Originally Posted by Razorfaust

These arguments to me don't amount to a hill of beans in my little shaving universe. You have brand X made with meticulous expertise, hand selected hairs shaped by what appears to be middle aged house wives that have acquired some dexterity in the process verses Brand Y apparently manufactured by invalids in China under forced labor that cant possibly understand how to make a good brush as If you needed a masters degree to do so. Not to mention that the Chinese have a history and culture in brush making in general that goes back 6,000 years. As with all things it depends on the source and determination to make a good product. I think this can be achieved by both. Also a knot improperly set is a waste of all the quality that might of went into making that knot as the brush itself will not function to its potential. I have used a few Brand X brushes and unfortunately have been disappointed in their ability to deliver what I like and yes this is a Ymmv thing. That said I have brand Y brushes that have actually impressed me performance wise and yeah they can be way cheaper. So go on and discuss how great those brands are as I said I have yet to be convinced that ill get what I pay for. Sometimes I wont.

Yes, I'd have to agree. No one country has a monopoly on intelligence and the ability to produce a quality product. The only difference I can see is in the will to make that product in the first place and the will to keep consistently good quality in production. Even under the best of circumstances you will get inevitable product failures the only difference being how often that occurs.

Bob

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Just a simple question Do we have a clip showing the Chinese process ???? or are many people here making assumptions ???

Glen, that is a great question. Since we have several members from China, why not send them on a fact finding tour? Can't be that difficult, really. And who knows what else they'll find? Like those few hundred Heljestrands we found in Eskilstuna. Glorious fun.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Since Labor costs are so cheap in the "Children's Sweat shops" how do we know they are not doing the exact same process as the Old World Makers ???

How do we know, indeed? Tell you what: They may actually be using the same process. But if they do, they are doing it wrong, cf this post.

The reality is much simpler: The Chinese do not aim for the high quality market. They never have. They go for mass production, and low- to mid-end markets.* First when they flooded the market with black badger paint brushes, then with badger cosmetic brushes. That is why so few traditional brush makers have survived. There is no market for high quality paint or cosmetic brushes (I'm talking about the consumer segment, not (make-up) artists). Viktoria make decent shaving brushes, but as you can see, they use industrial machinery to speed up the production process. Which is not what high quality brush makers do. Quality has its price when it comes to manufactured products, I'm sorry.

To tell you the truth, though, I find it remarkable that, in this forum, on the one hand craftsmanship is a virtue that is extolled, but on the other, people are more than happy to accept inferior goods just because they're cheap. And Chinese knots are inferior, it's as simple as that. They are also cheap. But if you want cheap and serviceable shaving stuff from China, get a Gold Dollar with a Frank Shaving** brush. They'll work. Only, they're not what we're here for, are they?

Just saying

Have fun
Robin

* Yes, I know that that doesn't apply to all their ICT equipment and similar high tech stuff.

** I am actually doing FS brushes a big injustice here. A friend of mine is bringing a few over from China, because I like them, as they are cheap yet very good - for their price which is laughable.

You'd better hope all their products are not cheap and inferior or the are a lot of people flying around in Boeing and Airbus aircraft with suspect Chinese made sub assemblies.

I always thought shaving forums were there to encourage people to get into traditional wet shaving and to be able to enjoy a good shave from traditional shaving tools. It goes without saying that not everyone needs/requires or can afford high end gear to achieve that result. You can still appreciate quality goods without being a slave to them.

Bob

You know, Bob, it's typically considered incredibly bad style to turn a fact or hypothesis based discussion into a long-distance urination competition.

Pro tip: Your answers will be more accurate and relevant if you read that to which you are replying first.

Case in point: Apropos assemblies, see my first footnote; apropos quality, cf my second footnote. Problem: You were, again, I must add, arguing a point which had never been made.

Now be a good forum member and kindly stop the ad hominem nonsense, will you? It's very unbecoming, you know? KThanks.

Originally Posted by RobinK

TViktoria make decent shaving brushes, but as you can see, they use industrial machinery to speed up the production process. Which is not what high quality brush makers do. Quality has its price when it comes to manufactured products, I'm sorry.

Robin - the only inference I can make from the photos of machinery being used is that it's for the application of the band and possibly the plug. At that stage the brush has already been formed - and I, for one, am not able to tell whether this makes it better, worse or the same quality as hand tying.

I looked at Shavemac yesterday - their top quality two band finest 26mm knot is nearly €150. I think you have to agree that's a huge premium to pay.

Originally Posted by RobinK

You know, Bob, it's typically considered incredibly bad style to turn a fact or hypothesis based discussion into a long-distance urination competition.

Pro tip: Your answers will be more accurate and relevant if you read that to which you are replying first.

Case in point: Apropos assemblies, see my first footnote; apropos quality, cf my second footnote. Problem: You were, again, I must add, arguing a point which had never been made.

Now be a good forum member and kindly stop the ad hominem nonsense, will you? It's very unbecoming, you know? KThanks.

Oddly enough I was agreeing with your first footnote re quality in similar high tech stuff. That goes to the point that they do have the will to produce products and ensure quality of those products although not in all cases. That does go to your last footnote that there are decent quality products even in the low cost/low tech end of the spectrum too.

Bob