Thread: Justice or Robbed of Justice ???

Just for accuracy the numbers I saw based on averages in the US

He would have cost Taxpayers a minimum of $750k over his life time, that does not figure in any Medical or Dental

One of the older set of stats I have seen is that 20 years max security costs $1m (not double checked)

Yeah I posted that a few responses back. Average for Ohio is around $70 a day. Times 20 years, factoring in inflation and the usual medical expenses associated with aging prisoners and their care, the cost is around $1 million US dollars.

Why am I not surprised the ACLU has stepped in looking to punish and levy fines against Ohio for violating Mr. Castro's civil rights. I mean, if there was any place somebody should go, say blow up a building or go on a Sandyhook style shooting spree, it should be their headquarters. I'm not advocating violence, just saying if somebody found out they had terminal cancer and they wanted to go down in history that would be a way to do it.

But I'm not advocating it. But like Chris Rock said in his stand up act "I ain't sayin iss right...but I unerstand!"

Originally Posted by Jimbo

...My point is that I think we should be able to conduct this kind of discussion in a way that conforms to the ethos of our forum - with civility and respect. I think Glen raised a serious question which deserves serious thought. I am simply voicing my concern that it may be drifting away from that. ...

James.

I have a difficult time ignoring it James. I don't have a problem with arguing the ethics or morality problem.

I do have a problem with implying that the correctional system allowed or somehow colluded in his death. Officially he was not on suicide watch and was considered a more routine prisoner.

I used to work for the prison system and the correctional officers have significant training in the observation of behaviors that lead to suicide and it's prevention. The one thing they don't have is omnisicence or omnipresence. The prisoner has 24/7 to come up with a way to defeat their ability to prevent self harm. What we don't know is a lot. Did he have things timed down to a ritual routine of when his next cell check was going to happen. After all (basic CPR), he only needs 6 minutes or the rest of his life to end things. If the guards were doing 30 minute rounds, he's got five lifetimes to beat them at their end. Plus, he could have jammed the cell door and all they can do while waiting for an acetylene torch is watch him die. There is too much we don't know.

I'll not say that all guards are perfect, but even the one's who could agree with the ethical/moral questions raised, their duty dominates their actions and they would probably not have allowed his demise if they could have prevented it. They do take the implication that they were somehow not doing their job seriously for the most part.

Just my two cents.

What bothers me more than anything else is the anger/vengeance motivated attitude to punishment that seems prevalent.

"He deserved it - he was a dirt bag". Well, the dude who cut me off in traffic last week was also a dirt bag, can I kill him? Who decides who is a dirt bag, and which dirt bags are worthy of death?

Apart from the proven (time and again) fact that innocent people can be executed, I have no gripe with the death penalty. The US and many other countries have laws which sanction such action (in some states) - so be it.

But that is my point: Laws. This man was given a trial (presumably fair), and a sentence was put down in accordance with your laws. And while it is clear that some of you disagree with a jail sentence and would have preferred the death penalty, it just didn't happen. And, like it or lump it, prison inmates in your country have a certain amount of rights - it's one of those quaint things that I believe makes your country great.

So whether it is this guy, Manson, whoever - all men are equal under the law; their crimes are weighed and measured under the law; their punishment is meted out under the law. That you might be glad he is dead is a matter for you and your conscience. That he is dead is a matter for the law.

James.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Apart from the proven (time and again) fact that innocent people can be executed, I have no gripe with the death penalty. The US and many other countries have laws which sanction such action (in some states) - so be it.

But that is my point: Laws. This man was given a trial (presumably fair), and a sentence was put down in accordance with your laws. And while it is clear that some of you disagree with a jail sentence and would have preferred the death penalty, it just didn't happen.

Not Quite in this case... He plead guilty to avoid the death penalty...

Ariel Castro pleads guilty in kidnappings, agrees to life sentence without parole - U.S. News


With that the victims and the "people" as in "We the People" did not really get the satisfaction and closure that a full trial would have brought..

Yes he saved everyone money from the start of this but as the saying goes "Money isn't Everything"

I guess I have a hard time having empathy for the perpetrator. Here is a thread from another forum I belong to with another miscreant who richly deserves to pay the ultimate penalty. I don't know what Nebraska's policy is though so he may be warehoused for life. His victims won't get to see the sunshine though.

But that is my point Glen - your laws allow a guilty plea to avoid the death sentence. I can understand in this case that that might leave a bad taste in people's mouths, but the law was applied as it stood. Perhaps if the community and the people don't think it is a good law, legislators can change it. But until they do, it is the law.

Jimmy, believe me I do understand - I don't care for this guy one iota. All I am saying is that the rule of law is paramount in a civilized society. Yes, there are dumb laws, ineffectual laws, stupid laws. But if we don't allow the legal process to take its course and start making what are arbitrary decisions based on public opinion instead of legal process, where will we end up?

James.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Jimmy, believe me I do understand - I don't care for this guy one iota. All I am saying is that the rule of law is paramount in a civilized society. Yes, there are dumb laws, ineffectual laws, stupid laws. But if we don't allow the legal process to take its course and start making what are arbitrary decisions based on public opinion instead of legal process, where will we end up?

James.

The due process was carried out. I don't argue with that, even if I was unhappy with the result. OTOH, I don't find my having a certain satisfaction in his untimely demise to be abnormal. A quote attributed to the famous, or infamous, Law West Of the Pecos, Judge Roy Bean, comes to mind ;

This is an actual sentence handed down by Judge Roy Bean ;

Jose Manuel Miguel Gonzales, in a few short weeks it will be spring.
The snows of winter will flow away, the ice will vanish, the air will become soft and balmy.
The annual miracle of the years will awaken and come to pass.

The rivulet will run its soaring course to the sea.
The timid desert flowers will put fourth their tender shoots.
The glorious valleys of this imperial domain will blossom as the rose.

From every tree top, some wild songster will carol his mating song.
Butterflies will sport in the sunshine.

But you will not be their to enjoy it. Because I command the sheriff of the county to lead you away to some remote spot, swing you by the neck from a knotting bough of some sturdy oak and let you hang until dead.

And then Jose Manuel Miguel Gonzales, I further command that such officers retire quickly from your dangling corpse, that vultures may descend from the heavens upon your filthy body until nothing is left but the bare, bleached bones of a cold-blooded, blood-thirsty, throat-cutting, murdering S.O.B

Originally Posted by Jimbo

What bothers me more than anything else is the anger/vengeance motivated attitude to punishment that seems prevalent.

"He deserved it - he was a dirt bag". Well, the dude who cut me off in traffic last week was also a dirt bag, can I kill him? Who decides who is a dirt bag, and which dirt bags are worthy of death?

Apart from the proven (time and again) fact that innocent people can be executed, I have no gripe with the death penalty. The US and many other countries have laws which sanction such action (in some states) - so be it.

But that is my point: Laws. This man was given a trial (presumably fair), and a sentence was put down in accordance with your laws. And while it is clear that some of you disagree with a jail sentence and would have preferred the death penalty, it just didn't happen. And, like it or lump it, prison inmates in your country have a certain amount of rights - it's one of those quaint things that I believe makes your country great.

So whether it is this guy, Manson, whoever - all men are equal under the law; their crimes are weighed and measured under the law; their punishment is meted out under the law. That you might be glad he is dead is a matter for you and your conscience. That he is dead is a matter for the law.

James.

Don't know exactly how to respond to this with only one approach, some I'll open up with a few statements.

The single line in the OP, suggested a hint of light hearted dark humor; I found it funny & threw in a few posts in the same context. I think that 2 sides have been drawn in this thread, when really there should not be.

I won't argue the death penalty with anyone, in a forum or in person. It's a waisted debate; the no-man's land between the two sides on this issue is so wide, that neither from both sides wants to cross over. I know I won't.


Your quote, "What bothers me more than anything else is the anger/vengeance motivated attitude to punishment that seems prevalent."


This is right on the money, but for reasons I don't think you will like. I talk to my friends about topics like this all the time, since I left high school & entered real life as a contributing adult. What kind of action is sought after a crime, varies from state to state here in America, as you well know. Some of our states do not have the death penalty, as you know. Laws are guidelines that we must follow, even if we disagree with them. Many times I've had to follow the law when I knew that the subject would repeat the offense, some of those times I wanted to "nip it in the bud" right there, but I had my boundries, the law.

But,,,I'm human, not a machine,,,if a child is kidnapped, raped & held or an innocent life is taken for fun,,,well,,,this thing called justice does not exist in the hearts of the offended/victims for crimes of this magnitude. The only thing that is left is a dark void of anger, hate, helplessness. Will a State's mandated list of penalities fill this void? No,,,,,
You want to fill this void?? Give me my back my child the way he/she was before you entered our lives.


Victims & families of victims want revenge in most cases. Revenge,,,something engraved in our souls, long before the first law was written.
Many feel hopeless & accept the penality set by law. This tends to evoke reactions from outsiders like us. We feel for the victims. So we banter with a little dark humor on forums.

Of course prisoners have rights, I don't think that was ever in question here.
The guy that cut you off in traffic, the "dirt bag", needs to be forced to stand in line all day at the DMV & have to take a re-test. Or,,,made to lap 3 barber hones. I'd stand in line at the DMV, myself.

I've never met you Jimbo or any of my Aussie buddies that I have met on SRP, but I care enough about all of you that if , God forbid, someone took one of you guys from us, I'd want the person responsible tied down in the middle of the outback & let the Dingos have their way with him,,,,,,I would want revenge.

I'm just not a vengeful person - perhaps that's the problem. I know this to be true, as things have happened to me in my life that I don't feel comfortable sharing in a public forum, but which I know would invoke a feeling of revenge in others. However, happily, I have never known the distress that accompanies such acts against those I love. And I hope to God I never have to.

I apologise. I've been imposing my ideas on others and expecting them to feel as I do. I've said what I've wanted to say, and I will respectfully bow out of this discussion now.

James.